What happens to negatives if the fixer is not properly rinsed?

[echang24]

I have had some white speckle problems recently with my film developing. I

went with 100% distilled water and the problems have disappeared.

 

I have been using Ilford's Rapid Fixer and I have been doing the fix rinsing

with the "save water" Ilford method (fill, invert 5, fill, invert 10, fill,

invert 20) method.

 

My negatives look fine but I was just curious what they might look like if the

fixer is not properly rinsed.

 

Thanks,

 

Eric

[pnance]

Brown spots, or worse. The white spots are from the water. Do you use a wetting agent (like Photo-flo)?

[echang24]

I use Photo-Flo and am careful to dilute it properly.

 

My issue was the wash water - switching to distilled water has fixed my problem.

 

BTW, do the brown spots form right away or over time?

 

Eric

[randall ellis]

Under fixed negatives appear foggy grey, or even opaque grey right out of the solution. Under washed negatives take time to show their condition and may appear fine for quite some time before discoloring. If you are uncertain you can get a test solution, or better yet make it yourself. For the solution commercially check Photographers Formulary or perhaps Freestyle. For the formula to mix it yourself, consult "The Film Developing Cookbook" ISBN:0240802772.

 

- Randy

[steve_johnston4]

I have found that using fresh chemicals and distilled water from pre-wash through fixing helps keep the negs in good shape. I also have good filters on the water lines to the lab sink so that impurities and particulate matter are kept to a minimum in the wash sequence.

[hughes]

Eric

 

If the negs are underwashed they will still have fixer residue which we will be white and you can almost smell and taste the fixer. BTW despite what Ilford say's that's not enough washing. If you suspect they still have residue just rewash them. In the olden days of newspapers if we were in a rush we would refix and rewash properly after printing .

 

regards Steve

[tripanfal]

"BTW despite what Ilford says that's not enough washing"

 

How can you be sure? Sometimes I have done this if I did not feel like hearing the water run forever. Actually I do the 10,20,30 thing, soak them for half an hour, then repeat 10,20.30. Rinse in distilled water and photoflow and hang.

 

Why would Ilford recommend this if it was not sufficient - Have you seen proof it is NOT sufficient?

 

Just wondering...

[gaius1]

<blockquote>Have you seen proof it is NOT sufficient?</blockquote>Yes.<p>My T-grain negs are still bright pink after the Ilford recommended wash, but clear grey after 10,20,30,40.

[tripanfal]

fair enough...

:)

[don_mckeith]

"Relatively short washing is sufficient for films, plates and resin coated papers. This is because their substrates are non-absorbent. If non-hardening rapid fixer is used, washing in running water for 5 minutes is adequare for these materials.

 

[edit]Film

Ilford advocates fill and dump washing system, which is very effective and minimizes water consumption"

 

 

http://wiki.silvergrain.org/wiki/index.php/Wash

[carl_bretteville]

Souped a roll of T-Max 400 a couple of months back (my staple 400ISO film is Hp5+). I read here that fixing it twice as long as the recommended time would remove the pink colour of the base. It did. Washing was as I normally do; Ilford 5, 10, 20, 20.

 

- Carl

[teresa_ledwidge]

Actually I would like to know what the water saving method is.

I have developed film at uni but not done it at home due to being on limited water supply.

Could someone please expand a bit on water saving methods

many thanks

Sharon

[chris_waller]

Inadequately washed negs will still contain some fixer residue which, after the passage of some time (months), will begin to degrade them. Brown/yellow stains start to appear.

 

I use the Ilford Method of washing and have done now for over twelve years. None of my negs from show any sign of deterioration so I am completely satisfied that, as Ilford themsleves have demosnstrated, it washes negs to archival standards. In my own case I add an additional 40 inversions since my wash water is often below 15 C.

 

As regards the purple stain which may remain, I recommend two-bath fixing as per the article by Dr. Michael Gudzinowicz. I now use this as a matter of course.

[echang24]

Teresa -

 

Here is a link to Ilford's Rapid Fixer fact sheet.

 

Read the section about washing film on page 2.

 

http://web.mit.edu/vogt/Public/Photography/datasheets/Ilford/Chemicals/Rapid_fixer.pdf

 

Eric

[pnance]

Opps, turns brown in time, would be white at first. Sorry.

[dave_s]

<A HREF="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00EVUJ">Some time ago</A> I estimated that the Ilford method takes out at least 99.998% of the fixer by volume, although I think that was a gross underestimate.

 

<p>

 

Assume that you're starting with 1ml of residual fixer solution in your gelatin and stuck to the inside of your 500ml tank before you start to wash. This means each wash would be a 500-fold dilution if you reached equilibrium.

 

<p>

 

Assume you only reach 50% equilibrium-- probably conservative. Then you are getting a 250-fold dilution of the fix with each wash step. If you do four washes, this is around a 4 billion-fold dilution of the traces of remaining fix, which means less than nanomolar.

[richard jepsen]

The Film Developing Cookbook mentioned TF-4 fix easily washes out of negs. In the old days the emulsions were thicker and the 30 min wash cycle based on 1 water exchange every 5 min. I feel safe using TF-4 and Iford's recommendation except I extend the wash time to 10-12 min.

[teresa_ledwidge]

thankyou Eric,

I will give it a go soon

Teresa

[echang24]

Based on this thread, I have started with this procedure for washing:

 

1. Fix (4 minutes)

2. Distilled water and invert 10 times

3. Distilled water and invert 20 times

4. Distilled water and invert 40 times

5. PermaWash (1 minute)

6. Distilled water and invert 10 times

7. Distilled water and invert 20 times

8. Distilled water and invert 40 times

 

There is neither white residue nor white speckles on my negatives. They are coming out very clean now.

 

Thanks to everyone's suggestions.

 

Eric

[profhlynnjones]

Inadequately washed film: Brown sulfide stains which changes to yellowish faint stains, followed by the disappearance of the image in those areas!

 

Wash carefully, longer than the recommended time.

 

For those who think that extended wash times will cause "grain migration" this almost never happens with modern films and if it should happen you would be talking about several hours of immersion.