510-Pyro paper developer

[jay_de_fehr]

Hello all, and especially to 510-Pyro users.

 

Last night I poured the last of a liter of 510-Pyro out of a beaker and into a

different storage container. It was on the cool side in my darkroom, and the

510-Pyro was more viscous than usual, and so the inside of the beaker had a

rather thick coating of the concentrate. Usually, I heat the beaker to thin

the concentrate and pour almost all of it out, but last night I was excited

about printing, and too impatient to heat the beaker, so instead I added some

warm water to clean out the beaker, but as the concentrate washed off of the

beaker, it made what looked like a fairly concentrated developer solution, and

I was reluctant to wash it down the drain, but I wasn't planning any DBI

development of film (the only use I could think of for an unknown

concentration of developer), and then I remembered XM Wang's joke about a

staining paper developer, from another thread.

 

I thought, what the hell, and poured the developer into my 8x10 paper

developing tray. There was about 500ml of solution in the beaker, and just

enough to cover the 5x7 paper I was using, so I decided to give it a try, but

I refilled the beaker with another 500ml to make a much more dilute solution

in the beaker, with the remaining 510-Pyro that didn't wash out with the first

500ml. So I had 500ml of fairly concentrated solution in the tray, and 500ml

of fairly dilute solution in the beaker next to the tray. I put my first print

into the tray, and the image came up in about 10 seconds....it works! So I

poured the 500ml of dilute solution into the tray and exposed another print.

This print emerged in about 30 sec., which I consider normal, so I settled on

this as the developer. I contact printed a 31 step Stouffers stepwedge to

determine the Density Range of the paper/developer combination, and found that

it produced the same 17-step scale that my standard paper developer does with

the same paper (Arista Edu Ultra RC VC semi-matte), but the image tone was a

beautiful olive-brown, and the print borders were clean, consistent with

proportional image stain. Since 510-Pyro contains no sulfite, I didn't expect

much in the way of tray life, running one 5x7 print after another through 1

liter of developer, but I was determined to make some prints with this

developer before it died, so I started printing in earnest. I used a water

bath instead of a stop bath, and it turned brown fairly quickly, but the

developer kept working, and I was loving the print tones it produced. I

printed until 5:00 AM, and the developer never died. It was dark brown when I

poured it back into the beaker, but I'm going to check it tonight by printing

the same step wedge, to see how much life, if any, it still has in it. The

prints I made last night/this morning look amazing. I can't adequately

describe the rich, olive-brown image tone, but I will definitely be using this

paper developer more often, and might make it my standard warm tone developer.

 

If I had to guess (and I do) at the concentration of the developer I used, I

would estimate it as a 1:25-1:50 dilution. I will run some controlled tests

tonight to determine a practical concentration. If any of you 510-Pyro users

wants to try it as a warm tone paper developer, I think you'll be very pleased

with the results, but I recommend gloves or tongs to keep your hands out of

the developer. Thanks to XM Wang for the inspiration.

 

Jay

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

I knew it would work, pyro developers are toners and developers simultaneously. How is the tone compared to Ilford warm tone paper? Warm tone paper is expensive and scarce, and I actually prefer it to the neutral. If this looks very similar, it would save me and other people money. Not sure about the toxicity though. How many of you printers here actually use the chemistry differently from Palmolive?

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Dan.

 

I've only used one paper, Arista Edu Ultra RC VC Semi-Matte, but the image tone is much better, to my eyes, than any WT paper I've used, without toning. Give it a try, and let me know what you think.

 

Jay

[wang]

Great.....Jay.

 

I was thinking it can stain the image on film, it should stain the image on paper too, I just don't know if the stained image on paper will resist UV ray and air for long though.

 

I can imagine how beautiful is your image on paper by pyro. I am very scratching to setup my wet dark room now. Any suggestion ot have it cheaply, easily setup? I have a 4x5 enlarger (150 USD only!), all the trays and beaker and so on (after many years pick up). I need to think about how water come and go now.

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Wang.

 

Alt. process printers who use stained negs report very little breakdown of the stain with repeated exposure to intense UV light, and the the emulsion tanning by pyrogallol makes for a very permanent image, so I think these prints should last at least as long as prints developed in standard paper developers, and most probably longer, but I don't know how they might compare to prints toned in selenium or sulfide toners. I'll pose the question to some of the platinum/palladium printers, and get their take on the issue.

 

The critical components of a DR design are ventilation, electrical, plumbing, and darkness, in that order. If you can't find a way to adequately ventilate a space, there is no need to consider the other requirements. Electrical needs can be met by an extension cord, if necessary, and water can be carried in and out, but ventilation is absolutely critical. There are many experienced photographers in your area, and I'm sure one of them would be willing to consult with you, and help you get your DR up and running. It's a wonderful community, and lab rats like me love nothing more than securing one more darkroom in a digital world. If I can be of any help from Idaho, you can count on me. Good luck.

 

Jay

[the world in black white]

Thanks, Jay, for posting your experience with 510-Pyro as a paper developer. I am anxious

to give it a go - perhaps tomorrow. It sounds lovely.

 

Don Denison

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi guys.

 

Sandy King has confirmed my recollection that pyro stain stands up to UV very well, and he's printed lots of stained negs under UV light. I look forward to the impressions of others regarding 510-Pyro as a paper developer. Have fun!

 

Jay

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi guys.

 

I made several more prints tonight from last night's developer, but after a dozen or so, I started to lose Dmax. I made up a new working solution at 1:50, and that gave me an image emergence time of 18 seconds.

 

Jay

[daniele_tanto2]

Jay as most of the pyrogallol paper developers Pyro 510 suffer of a "short" tray life, but during this it produces very fine results.

I made an experiment last September with the last 20 ml. of Pyro 510 of the summer batch mixed with the exact amount of Kodalk I use for films, my 510 is in Glycole not in TEA, and I add 1 and half liter of water. It worked very well, but with a short life around 15/20 prints 24x30 cm. The tones are of a very pleasant dark and blacks are very deep. I printed on Fortezo graded paper baryt. It will worth a try, for sure.

For all the lovers of warm paper with warm results and deep blacks

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Daniele,

 

thanks for posting your impressions. It seems like I'm getting about the same tray life from a 1:50 dilution of 510-Pyro that I would expect from Dektol 1:2, and about the same capacity. Your developer was 50% more dilute, which might have affected both tray life and capacity, but probably not the results, before exhaustion. I'm very happy with the prints I'm making, and at 1:50, 510-Pyro is still very economical. Thanks again for posting, it's good to hear from you.

 

Jay

[profhlynnjones]

Hi Jay,

 

If this is truly a Pyro developer keep your hands out of it, it causes liver disease if you are exposed to it for some time. Also, of course, the brown stains on your hands will stay until the outer layer of skin disappears.

 

I love pyro film developers and used them in my 20's (50 years ago).

 

Lynn

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Lynn.

 

510-Pyro is truly a pyro developer. I wear nitrile gloves when using any DR chemicals. What pyro developers did you use 50 years ago?

 

Jay

[wang]

Talking about gloves in DR, I use those COSTO gloves, 9.xx for 300 counts(3 boxes pack), is this glove good enough for protection? It's so cheap and so easy to use.

[the world in black white]

Greetings! ! I just processed a print using 510-Pyro diluted @ 1:30 for 2 minutes on Agfa

Classic paper - in a JOBO CPP-2. With your indulgence, I will post a comparison of this

print, after it dries, with the same image processed in Agfa Neutol Plus and toned with Agfa

Viradon. Both prints were from a negative developed in 510-Pyro, and both prints were

exposed for the same length of time with a Zone VI light head. (Is that more than you

wanted to know?) I'll be back soon.

[the world in black white]

Here is the first of two images. This image was processed in 510-Pyro on Agfa Classic fiber

paper without toning.<div></div>

[the world in black white]

Here is image 2 of 2. It was processed on Agfa Classic with Agfa Neutol Plus and toned in

Agfa Viradon.<div></div>

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

Too green for my taste.

[the world in black white]

"Too green for my taste."

 

Probably mine too. I'll try it with other papers before throwing it out. I will post any

revelations, should there be any.

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi all.

 

Yesterday I watched Tom Cooper, of Boise Photo and Darkroom, make several FB prints with 510-Pyro 1:50, and learned a few things in the process. First, development procedes in an unusual way; very slowly at first, beginning with the shadows, and then the midtones, and finally the highlights. The images didn't emerge until after 1 minute in the tray, and weren't fully developed until 4 minutes. Donald's image looks like some of Tom's that weren't fully developed, or that were made toward the end of the developer's working life. Second, image tone varies considerably with paper and surface, and the most pleasing results I saw were with Ilford MG FB Matte. Third, The capacity seems to be about 12 11x14 prints/liter, after which Dmax suffers, the tone shifts toward green, and eventually the print borders turn pinkish. It's clear that this developer is best made up fresh, and used over the course of several hours, and not left in the tray overnight. Thank you all for contributing your experiences here, and I look forward to seeing more examples.I wish I could upload some of my images, but I don't have a flatbed scanner. Maybe I'll borow one....

 

Jay

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

"development procedes in an unusual way; very slowly at first, beginning with the shadows, and then the midtones, and finally the highlights."

 

That's interesting. Is this true about film development in this developer as well?

 

On a similar note, I wonder if there is a fast and easy way to precisely test a developer's activity. It is easy with fixer - we just measure the time it takes to fix a snippet of film. What about the developers? Assuming I have a gallon of a developer on a shelf that I have not used in several months, how can I quickly tell how active a developer is, or how much activity it has lost since fresh? Yes I know I can and probably should throw it out, but still?

[skygzr]

I wonder if a little sulfite in the working solution would keep it fresh longer...maybe 15 grams per liter of working solution (same as D72/Dektol). The stock 510 would stay the same, prepare the sulfite as a side dish. Mmmmm.

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

Sulfite will kill the stain.

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Dan.

 

The best way to test the properties of a developer is to expose a film to a stepwedge and process the film in the developer in question. By comparing the processed stepwedge to one developed in fresh developer, one can easily, accurately, and reliably assess the condition of the shelf-worn developer. Other Q&D methods will test for activity/no activity, but tell you little about the developer's usefulness in between. One doesn't need a densitometer to use this test, a visual comparison of the stepwedges will suffice for the purposes of determining the activity level of a developer. The stepwedge exposure setup must be documented for reliable repetition, but it's a fairly easy set up to make, and can spare one the uneasiness of committing precious film to aging developer.

 

Kevin,

 

Dan is right, the sulfite will kill the stain, but I don't know how it would effect other properties. Maybe someone will give it a try.

 

Jay

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

Jay: Thanks, where can I find more info?

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Dan.

 

Beyond the Zone System, by Phil Davis describes the process in detail, along with a lot of other practical sensitometry information. It's well worth the read.

 

Jay