Street shooting post 9/11

[thunderbroom]

i have been on an extended hiatus from all photography since 2003. In preparing

to get back out there i was wondering if anybody has had run ins with homeland

security while shooting. also implications of the "military commisions act"

specificaly the notion that data gathering could lead a person to be classified

an enemy combatant.

[michaelging]

Daniel, I waited for someone to answer you for hours and no one has, I guess if they did run into the people you mentioned they are in a Gulag Prison right now and do not have access to a lawyer or a computer. I have not had any problems and I am out taking photos everyday.I say go out and make some photos and not worry about it.

[Brad_]

Tens of thousands of photos in urban areas - zero problems. Same with a dozen or so

friends who do the same thing. <P>

 

<I>...specificaly the notion that data gathering could lead a person to be classified an enemy

combatant.

</I><P>

Are you serious?

[ron_erwin1]

I was questioned by Homeland Security in Albuquerque in 2005. I had photographed a couple of women on a smoke break, and it turns out they were post-office employees.

 

The officers were brusk in the beginning, but professional at all times. They tried bluffing, but when I had all the right answers, they relented. They told me to watch myself, and when I asked if they were saying that I had done something illegal, they said no.

 

Although I realize that this was a benign incident, I do feel that there's a dark side to it. It has a chilling effect on people. Even when I tell the story now to non-photographer friends, they suggest that I give it up. I am 54 years old, white, and I've lived in the same town all my life. I know the law and accepted the questioning as part of the price you pay for doing photography that way. But to claim that they were fighting terrorism by questioning me for 90 minutes for having photographed two women on the street is nonsense.

 

And for what it's worth, I found that actually babbling about photography seemed to get them to back off. They would ask questions to see if I really was a photographer, and i would bury them in details about aperture and focal length and the history of street photography. I also took them to my truck and showed them notebooks filled with the stuff I shoot. As is often pointed out here, one key to successful street photography is believing in why you are there, and the same thing holds true when the authorities are questioning you.

[ray .]

I got asked to leave two different airports in 2004, but it took a couple visits before

someone reported a suspicious character. Funny that I was alone walking in

an isolated baggage check area

and

went past a policeman who didn't even blink, same with another cop who saw me

pointing the camera straight at him. It was when somebody else complained to

security that they took action, and in both cases Homeland Security was cited. If I

had told them I was enroute somewhere on a plane, it might have passed, but letting

them know I was just there to make photographs- well, they didn't like it. One

copper

told me if I went out on the street in the city I might be questioned there too. He was

half

my age, and if I could have flipped him the bird without getting in deep do-do I

would have. I think in that instance it was an airline employee who complained.

It's understandable they'd be on edge. It was the interface with the police after

complaint, particularly at LAX, that I felt could have been handled better. My personal

feeling is, cops have a very tough job, and maybe half who are qualified just have to

be

assh*les by nature.

 

I've been with Brad shooting and he has a very forward and friendly approach and is

always moving, and he looks harmless. At times I'll just sort of camp out in an area

that looks like it

could be interesting, for a half hour or so. That probably gives people something

more to think about.

[spanky]

Postal workers on a break huh? As opposed to what..actually working?

Let me guess...10 people in line and one window open like all the post offices around me. You're lucky Ron, they could've uh, "gone postal" when they saw you snap their picture.

[tholte]

Marc, "You're lucky Ron, they could've uh, "gone postal" when they saw you snap their picture." Wonderful attitude to have in this day and age, you owe all postal workers an apology.

[sknowles]

I haven't heard problems with Homeland security and being labelled an enemy combatant,

but it's a real concern for every citizen for the power it give the President to arrest and

hold any citizen, despite what the legal analysts say. The case in Portland, Oregon last year

proved as much. I'm surprised how quickly Congress gave such powers to the President in

violation to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. No one yet has been convicted of terrorism

under the Patriot Act, and over 90% of its usage is for common crimes, which showed the

government didn't need the power.

 

A little off-topic, about Postal workers. Please differentiate between workers and

management. Remember they're union and the management sets the work rules, including

the number of open windows. I've known many PO workers and union reps over the years,

and they're simply abiding the rules management sets. They have decent benefits (health

insurance, pay, retirement, etc.) but they lack power over their jobs and work.

 

And consider what they do. If a company would do everything they do, would they be able

to deliver any letter/package anywhere in the country in any weather in 2-3 days for the

same price? They have their problems, mostly keeping up with technology, not unlike

health care, industry, etc., and vehicles expenses, and that's where most of their cost

increases go. It's easy to compare UPS, FedEx for picking the cream of the services, but

look at their prices. What do you think they would charge for a plain letter? And notice the

USPS is also price competitive for the same service, and they deliver 24/7.

 

Sorry, it's a sore subject with me as some are lifelong friends. Criticism should be aimed at

their management than the workers.

[spanky]

Sorry about the postal jokes Scott...I was in a weak moment and just couldn't resist. I might add too that I've had several problems with UPS delivering my parcels, never USPS. So much for the theory that the private sector will always trump the government for cost and efficiancy.

[mike_mcevers]

2 years ago in Seattle:

"Ian Spiers drew the attention of Seattle police and Homeland Security personnel in the spring when he took pictures at the Ballard Locks. Spiers, pictured near the Locks yesterday, says he hasn't returned to the public park since a federal agent told him to stay away."

 

http://www.notinourname.net/detentions/photo-seattle-14jul04.htm

 

im not editorializing, just commenting.

[Brad_]

Every morning I wake up in a cold sweat and almost paralyzed knowing that roughly 700

people are struck by lightning every year in the US. Some days I just want to stay in bed

rather than face that risk.

[ray .]

Want me to call a shrink for ya? ;)

[Brad_]

No way, Ray. I recently heard on the internet that there's a new secret law where shrinks are

required to forward their client notes to the government within 48 hours. Goes into a

database that aids in identifying potential future threats.

[b_hall1]

Enemy combatant by the Geneva Convention refers to insurgents in war zones without uniforms...

 

The Geneva Convention requires that soldiers have uniforms but if military operations can be launched against groups then those groups are certainly identified and known...

 

I call them regional combatants to differentiate from international terrorists...who travel internationally.

 

But people have been kidnapped at Kennedy Airport and flown to Eastern Europe or to the Middle East. (The CIA is not supposed to have operations in its own country but is allowed to conduct operations outside of the U.S. but those operations are often illegal in their locale. For instance Italy has arrest warrants issued for some CIA personnel.)

 

Generally speaking the FBI prosecutes people in the U.S. for things like giving-material-suppport-to-terrorists or for conspiracy-to-commit. (Some of those prosecuted were not making bombs but listening to and accepting money from an undercover agent. Others were not making bombs but suggesting attacks while on web forums.)

 

Now suppose terrorists buy some of your photos from your web site. The terrorists can also buy Dell computers or buy AT&T cell phones. Being a vendor is not giving support to terrorists.

 

But train stations or train yards, and major airports are going to have security. Might as well plan on getting a photography permit or forgetting it.

 

Public water works, refineries, or airliner flight paths are going to have local police response. Of course the photographer is identified by their car and that is responsible behavior. In fact with ID you are doing the same thing that the press does.

 

But you are safer photographing classic infrastructure than photographing primary infrastructure.

 

In most cases the correct response is "amateur photography" and not much else. Now use of a tripod might identify you as a professional and then permit required...

[stsva]

I've shot personal photos of family members along with some of the terminal at Dulles International in DC with no problem. The only problem I've had was during a business trip to Philadelphia. I was walking down the street and saw an armored truck in the entrance to a building. When I started to take a snapshot the guards were very clear that I should stop. It turned out it was the U.S. Mint - I guess they discourage photography due to security concerns. The only other areas I think you'd need to worry about would be military installations, especially the security checkpoints and other security arrangements.

[sknowles]

Marc, I've had my problems with the USPS over the years, but generally very few, and the

most is not paying for lost items even when using their insured tracking. I make this

comment every time I hear those words as I've had friends from the 1970's who have been

postal employees, one a longtime union representative. He could talk your ear off about

their management.

 

I forgot about the Seattle incident with the Ballards Locks. I just wonder even if we change

control of Congress, and even the President, if they'll rescind the Patroit and Enemy

Combatants Acts. Our democracy is slowing eroding and few seem to care to restore civil

rights and liberties. It angers me any US citizen can be arrested, secreted away, denied

legal rights, under the suspicion of support to terrorists, and the evidence doesn't have to

be shown to a court because the evidence was collected through top secret activities. And

we'd spend years in prison while the courts argued.

 

And very few people blinked not realizing the NSA, FBI, HSA's techniques are collecting

data on every citizen without relevance to terrorism and without warrants, and much of it

is shared with corporations who are often contracted for the work or support to the

agencies, and whom we have no control of their use. Enuf said.

[Brad_]

I dunno James... With all of the above I'm way too terrified to go out and shoot.

[ray .]

You could join a holiday ornament decoration and craft club....

 

... then come January hole in and edit those 10 thousand pics..?

[j_robinson2]

"Marc, "You're lucky Ron, they could've uh, "gone postal" when they saw you snap their picture." Wonderful attitude to have in this day and age, you owe all postal workers an apology."

 

He doesn't owe anyone an apology. Where do you think the term "going Postal" came from? It wasn't from some of these folks being rude at the stamp window.

[m_.]

>>so where do we go from here?

 

by posting here, they already got what's in your mind. so you might as well get out now.

[thunderbroom]

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

[yankfan]

"Gone Postal" unfortunately, has become a catch phrase because of several incidents of USPS employees committing violent acts upon their fellow employees. As a former USPS worker, I got used to the term, although it's a sensitive issue with all who work for the USPS. People now use it as a flippant remark. On the other side of the coin, how would you feel if people started using the phrase "gone Collumbine"? Would you be outraged? The number of incidents of school shootings far outweighs acts of violence among postal workers. Such phrases do nobody any good. It's time to eradicate "gone postal" and the like from our lexicon. As for the "postal workers on break", and "as opposed to working", whether you meant them as joke or not, is a little stupid to say the least. Every worker, postal or not, deserves their break. It's like cops and donut jokes. Rant over ;-)

[j_sevigny]

"As is often pointed out here, one key to successful street photography is believing in why you are there, and the same thing holds true when the authorities are questioning you."

 

This is a really nice thought and I think we photographers should think about that more -- the WHY. I don't think it applies only to street shooters, though, but to anyone documenting anything with a camera or a pen.

 

I was stopped and questioned by homeland security dweebs while taking pictures of a public sculpture in downtown Miami. The sculpture was in front of the federal courthouse and that's what got the attention of the two federal agents, who were very professional and polite at all times. One of them asked me about megapixels and zoom lenses or something. They took my name and let me go.

 

Really, it was a little scary, but it was no hassle compared to some experiences I?d had with law enforcement officials.