M8, banding and color casT

[michael_reese1]

is the number of people who haven't yet taken delivery but are planning to do so despite the unsolved issues.

 

Only if they are going to us them to take pics.

[vinay_patel]

That old saw is hilarious in this case. You must mean "only if they are going to use them to take pics with colour casts, reflections, and streaks that can't be eradicated in post processing". Have you read the dispassionate reports from knowledgeable, professional photographers (with studios, websites, portfolios, etc.) on other fora who are unable to use them "to take pics" professionally and are contemplating returning their M8? It would be more realistic to say that at this point, the only people within the comfort zone to buy or keep an M8 would be those who AREN'T going to use them to take "pics", at least not until whenever it is Leica gets to the bottom of these multiple issues and comes up with a workable, acceptible solution. There has been some early speculation that we may need to attach IR filters to our lenses to allow a proper WB!

[steve_swinehart]

Several comments.

 

The pre-production M8 I used was called that because it did not come from a production run of cameras. It did have the latest version of firmware (software) in the camera. The unknown with that particular camera was whether any there were mechanical or electronic differences between it and a production camera.

 

"There has been some early speculation that we may need to attach IR filters to our lenses to allow a proper WB!"

 

Nothing like speculation as opposed to actually using the camera.

 

The camera I had white balanced fine under a variety of conditions. Early morning daylight, midday daylight, late afternoon daylight, post sunset, incandescent lighting, and fluorescent lighting.

 

It also has the ability to set a fixed Kelvin white balance. I tested it using the "daylight" setting and then at a fixed 5600K to see the difference in image color with the different outdoor light color temperatures.

 

Does anyone remember the Nikon D200 which had a number of problems when it was released? Nikon fixed those, I have no doubt Leica can address their problems as the M8 I used had far better initial image quality than the DMR I used. The DMR imaging problems were severe, and were all addressed by Leica so that anyone buying the back today would be totally unaware of the initial imaging problems.

 

BTW - that was exactly why the DMR release was delayed - and many of you castigated Leica for "not being able to get it right," "Can't deliver on time," etc. They delayed the release to "get it right" and were criticized for doing so.

 

Now, they release the M8 on time - in part so they wouldn't endure the same rap for "not being able to deliver" - and many of you feel it necessary to pile-on again over relatively minor imaging problems -something ALL manufacturers have had to address with certain models.

 

Nothing like setting up a lose-lose situation. Delay the camera to tweak it - get criticized for not delivering. Deliver the camera on-time - get criticized for it not being perfect.

 

It's a PRODUCT. Products evolve. In 2-3 months (or less) the camera will be tweaked and smoothed out. If you don't want it until you deem it "perfect" - fine, don't buy it.

 

Me? I'm waiting for an extended use of the camera which I was promised by the Leica rep in January when they get their permanent sample.

 

It seems to be a lovely camera. I have several test images that I've up-sized to 24x36 inches - and I'm totally knocked out by the image quality. So much so, that I'm seriously thinking about retiring my long time companion of 24 years - my Plaubel Makina 670.

 

Now, that's something I thought would NEVER HAPPEN.

[vinay_patel]

You make some valid points. I can see where those who tested the preproduction samples might be feeling a little uncomfortable since the delivered M8s are all experiencing the same obvious problems which almost every new owner noticed right off the bat. I speak only for myself, you guys are not to share in the blame here. It is entirely possible something was done in the final tweaks that either caused or at least made the M8 more prone to show these defects. Of course, like my comment in re the front-lens IR filters, this is only speculation.

 

From the gist of your comments it appears that you have not spent your own money on an M8. Those who have are understandably more likely to be aggravated that it isn't doing what it was promised, and moreso that so far it's unknown whether the issues can be fixed, let alone without major down-time.

 

Yes, Leica was castigated for delaying the DMR. They have also been castigated for providing, after a long delay, a firmware update that many people are not happy with. (Leica does have a history of taking their time rectifying problems, and I'm sure that too has a lot of new M8 owners concerned.) But the M8, being an M-mount digital rangefinder rather than an SLR like the DMR, has no direct competition. Delaying the release might have brought speculation as to their incompetence in digital technology, but releasing it with serious issues is evidence, unfortunately. Many people might argue that making people wait impatiently is preferable to taking their money and putting a faulty product in their hands and involving them logistically in what could be a complicated and time-consuming solution.

 

I am a strong supporter of Leica and was hoping the M8 would put them back on the cutting edge of photography. Force the bashers and naysayers to eat their words. The M8 will get fixed, eventually. It will take Leica a lot longer, if ever, to recover from the bad press.

[john_camp]

I have an M8. It bands when I force it to band, and I get the green "overflow" image when I

shoot a particular kind of photo (an extremely over-exposed bright light source in a

generally dark photo.) I haven't seen the magenta cast in ~200 shots (but then, 20 of

those were attempts to force banding.)

 

The bottom line on the M8 is (from my point of view) that a few photographers shooting

very specific types of subjects will have problems. You probably wouldn't want to shoot

rock bands from behind the bands, where you are shooting up into the lights in a dark

auditorium; however, shooting from the front of the bands would generally be okay. And

weddings may be a problem, because churches are often generally dark, with a few

bright-light sources (like slot windows.) Also, if you have a lot of black fabrics, some of

which reflect lots of IR, you may have a problem with a magenta cast; black raincoats may

do it because of the waterproof coating, and perhaps some formal clothing, as used in

some weddings (tuxedos).

 

So far as I can see, those are the problem spots. For other kinds of photos, the camera is

wonderful.

 

You can shoot at night with decent results up to ISO 1250 If you avoid very large bright-

light sources in the frame. I shot a whole row of streetlights at night (with the lamp-type

covers) and got no streaking, because the lights were not bright enough. In my

experience, the light has to be both extremely bright and over-exposed and fairly large in

the frame. Also, the streaking occurs more at higher ISOs, and frankly, I got some nice

hand-held night shots at 320 (with an f1 Noctilux.) One kind of shot that would cause

problems, though I haven't tried it, because I haven't had the circumstances: if you were to

shoot, say, a romantic dark-nightclub shot in which you wanted a candle flame to be large

and close, while the subjects were further away, and lit only by the flame...I suspect it

would streak.

 

I think, by the way, that these are shots that you couldn't make at all with film, because of

simple light contamination. These are large, hyper-bright lights included in a frame that

exposed for dimly lit scenes.

 

The Noctilux, by the way, is a marvellous lens on the M8 -- better, for my way of shooting,

than on the M7, because it's effectively just slightly longer, allowing me to stand back a bit

further from the subject.

 

JC

[vinay_patel]

The problem is John, that much of those subjects where the M8's problems are surfacing are major subjects for a lot of people who choose the rangefinder, and I'm talking amateurs and pros. Would you buy a Porsche if the headlights and reverse were inoperative? I mean, you could drive it everywhere, during the day, as long as you don't need to back up :-)

[gary_ferguson1]

Can anyone provide a link to where Leica acknowledge the problem? I'm not questioning the accuracy of the statement, I just want to read what Leica had to say.

[vinay_patel]

<a href="http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digitalforum/8753-leica-antworten-zu-6-bit-kodierung.html">Here</a> is the synopsis of what this individual was informed by Leica in Solms. Do your best with one of those online translators if you don't read German.

[vinay_patel]

As to the "speculation" before that Leica's answer to the purple color cast might be to buy a filter for each lens, the following is a link that appears to confirm that sorry situation. It also mentions that the filter would be in addition to a firmware change, and would require the 6-bit coding on the lenses used. <a href="http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8937-official-leica-statements.html">Link</a>

[Brad_]

"There has been some early speculation that we may need to attach IR filters to our lenses to

allow a proper WB!"

 

>>>> Nothing like speculation as opposed to actually using the camera.

 

 

Too funny. Yep... Nothing like glossing over reality...