M8-killer

[jtk]

Face it, few are going to spend $7000 for a low resolution M8 with 28MM

equivalent when they can get 14MP for (probably) well under $2000:

 

http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3403

 

...of course, they'll have to give up the rangefinder...but what the heck,

they've got no pride anyway if they're using Leicas with internal meters.

[aaron_johnston]

This looks like good competition for the Ricoh GR-D but I don't see how a Sigma p&s will compete with an interchangable lens digital rangefinder. Sorry.

[stephen_w.]

First, the M8 is $4800 in the US. Second, as mentioned, no interchandable lenses. Third, slow lens. Forth, no VF.

[jtk]

Leica M10 will probably have adequate mp, but not many of us will spring for Leica digital lenses (they'll resort to CV).

 

One nice thing about a big 14mp chip with 28MM vs a Leica's little chip is that you'll have plenty of fat pixels working for you, even after a lot of cropping.

[stephen_w.]

Sorry for the typo

 

Fifth, exactly what is a "large sized sensor"?

[andrew robertson]

14 "total effective" megapixels. In actuality it's 1/3 of that.

 

But no way is an M killer. If the Konica Hexar AF and Ricoh GR-1 didn't kill off the M6, the

Sigma won't kill the M8.

[shambrick007]

"model that uses the same large sensor as the SD14. "<p>So that's a 1.5 crop right? So *smaller* than the M8.

[william_linne]

Plus, Sigma makes absolute garbage for the most part. In the camera store, I used to slave away in, Sigma products had THE highest return rate of any product.

[patrick_jelliffe]

Betcha it will retail for much less than a 21mm Leica lens, and have similar performance. Not a bad deal.

[john_a.]

Does the build quality rival the M8? Apples to oranges???

[mark u]

As a first approximation, it seems that Foveon sensors produce images with a resolution equivalent to a Bayer sensor with about twice the number of pixel locations (each location has an RGB stack of pixels) - so around 9MP Bayer equivalent in this case. The sensor is actually about a 1.7 crop factor (16.6mm lens with 28mm equivalent FoV, 3:2 image), so f/4 is going to limit narrow depth of field capabilities.

 

The design shown at Photokina was still a prototype, and given reactions it's possible that they may at least incorporate a cold shoe for an accessory finder by the time the camera actually hits the market. It should have reasonable high ISO and long exposure capability, and its compact size will certainly put it up against the GR-D, which it should beat comfortably for image quality, though perhaps not for ergonomics.

[herve_laurent]

I spent a fair amount of time on Photonet and found from time to time some very interesting

postings. Yet, I fail to see any relevance and interest in the comment of John Kelly. The first

sentence is plain ridiculous. When you consider the people interested in the M8, How many of

them would be changing their mind because of a point and shoot with a fixed lens and no

viewfinder at all. I have to assume that the posting is either provoked by someone who has a

vested interest in pushing sigma equipment or someone who does not understand what a

leica camera is. I can understand why someone would say that they don't think the leica is

worth so much money but comparing to a sigma P&S, please

[dstate1]

Oh yeah, look at that awesome viewfinder! Pros will be jumping for that baby!! I

need at least 200mp to really clearly record my camera shake.

[matt_m__toronto_]

john got punk'd :)

[steve_swinehart]

Once again, John Kelly, in his zeal to find anything anti-Leica totally misinterprets specifications and performance. If you had the slightest idea about how the Foveon sensor actually works, you wouldn't make such an ignorant post.

 

I have an M8 at my house right now, and am testing it. I will shoot more test frames tomorrow and find out the capabilities of the camera. When YOU do that kind of investigation prior to making ufnounded comments, THEN you may be able to make informed posts instead of pure speculation.

[bradley_reiman]

if you aren't kidding...i'll add-this is less than aps sized sensor with nore pixels smashed into

a smaller space, this sensor would probably be better with LESS pixels in the noise

department. bigger pixels are actually better than more pixels at this point. and 28 equiv

F4?!?!?! you must be joking. this camera would be better compared to the newest japanese 4g

camera phones, and they might actually be better. absurd as well as insulting post...Bradley

[frank_skomial]

28 / 16.6 = about 1.7 crop factor.

Depending on the quality of the lens, and features, this camera could compete with others in range of about US$500.

[del_gray]

Agree that the original comment is a exaggerated, but lost in all the backlash is the fact that this is indeed an interesting camera that could be promising. I'll be interested in the reviews.

[Richard Williams]

'The design shown at Photokina was still a prototype, and given reactions it's possible that they may at least incorporate a cold shoe for an accessory finder by the time the camera actually hits the market.'

 

I hope you're right - Sigma is really missing a trick here if they don't do this, or ideally include a built-in finder. I'd guess that the overlap between people who are interested in a high quality, fixed lens, large sensor camera and those who want an optical finder is pretty large (and the fixed lens greatly simplifies the finder design).

[mark u]

Actually the sensor for the DP1 has pixels that are 7.8 microns, compared with 6.8 microns for the M8. This is because it is configured as 2652x1769x3 due to the overlaid RGB pixels. The fact that each colour is sampled at each location avoids the need for Bayer interpolation, and thus the effective resolution should not be equated to a Bayer sensor of 2652x1769 (4.7MP), or 14.1MP, but rather to about double the number of pixel locations -i.e. 2x4.7 ~=9MP, since a Bayer sensor actually has only half the rated MP as green pixels that are the biggest determinant of effective resolution. With a subject that is predominantly red and/or blue, the Foveon design actually maintains much the same effective resolution, whereas a Bayer sensor will be relying on the MP/4 pixels that are red or blue.

 

So far as noise performance is concerned, the pixel size would at first sight actually give a theoretical advantage to the DP1 sensor over the M8 - but the radically different design with stacked RGB pixels means that even more than usual, actual sensor performance is the only reliable guide to comparative performance. At Photokina, prints were displayed from pre-production SD14 DSLRs that use the same sensor. Several of those prints were at 400 ISO, and one at 800 ISO - printed at 47x70 centimetres - 18.5x27.5 inches. You can find photographs made of these prints here:

 

 

Obviously, photographs of prints made with a digicam aren't going to reveal as much about the real image quality as actual image files, however the early indications are that the new sensor performs much better at high ISO and with long exposures than the sensor used in the SD10 camera - and those who actually saw the prints seem to have been reasonably impressed.

 

The DP1 is not going to compete with an M8, but as the first easily pocketable camera (the prototype is about 110x60x30mm) with a decent size sensor and a prime lens it is likely to attract a following.

[andreas_holmstr_m]

I'm gonna go for the M8:)

 

Sigma pretty much rubbish as stated earlier. Never owned a Sigma lens with my Canons either...

[elmarfudd]

"Sigma pretty much rubbish as stated earlier."

 

 

Now that's just as ridiculous as saying that their P&S will compete with the M8. Sigma makes many good products, some of their lenses out perform Canon or Nikon's alternatives at lower prices. They're no Leica..... but neither is Canon.

[tito sobrinho]

For years, i.e. 1956, I've been doing B&W photography from 35mm up to LF (8x10),using a wet darkroom. Since I'm reaching an older age, on my last trip 3 weeks ago to SA, I've decided to borrow my daughter's old Minolta Dimage 7. After a 2 days "crash course", I photographed my relatives and friends with it and found out that the camera has also a "viewfinder". Brought back excellent pictures.

 

I'm not aware of pixels, size, Foveon and so on! If the M8 prooves to be a good camera i.e. without "recalls" perhaps, I might buy one...but not because of its name, or maybe a digital back for my Hasselblad.

[Brad_]

I think the retorts are far more revealing than the original post. So many take themselves so

seriously ....

[elmarfudd]

Sassy.