Can Agfa Scala be cross-processed in standard b&w chemistry ?

[art_arkin]

A couple of years ago I bought 20 dirt cheap rolls of Agfa Scala

(without the processing vouchers). I exposed just a few of these and

have now learnt that Scala processing is no more.

 

Do any of you have experience processing this film in standard b&w

chemistry and if so do you have suggestions on which dev, how long etc.

 

Does cross-processed Scala have any unique features or does the

process simply produce standard looking negatives?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[frank.schifano]

Good question. I'm inclined to think that Scala processed as a negative might not produce quality negatives. I'm willing to bet that DR5 can process it properly for you though. Check them out at http://www.dr5.com/

[discpad]

If you don't want it, I'll buy some or all of it from you (or swap you for other film from my freezer). Is it 35mm or 120?

 

DR5 soup works well on Scala, but is pricey...

[flaviosganzerla]

I have 2 rolls of Scala too and am planning to develop them in Rodinal, unfortunately I don�t have $ to send them to DR5. Do a search here in photo.net and you will find some answers. But I am, as you, waiting for some different answers (and samples).

[lowell_huff1]

Scala, processed negatively, resembles Tech Pan processed in the same manor. When processed in reversal chemistry, it gives a positive image.

[klix]

In addition to DR5, Main Photo in SoCal still processes Scala. Main Photo was one of 3 "authorized" Scala processing places in the US.

 

http://mainphoto.com/

 

KL

[john_stockdale2]

My guess is that Scala processed as negative film would be similar to APX100. I'm basing this guess on the fact that the Agfa pdf files showing the sensitivity of films to the spectrum used the exact same graph for APX100 and Scala, but all the other ones were different to each other. It would make sense to use the same emulsion for 2 films of the same speed.

 

Is the base colourless? (As opposed to the grey of normal 35mm base).

[jtj]

Scala does very well in pyro!

 

This is an ORTHO clear-base film type, like the films that were used in the mid 1900's.

 

Today there is only dr5.com, but you can always process it yourself if you know how to reverse process. dr5 is the only stable processing choice for B&W reversal.

 

Dan; I dont think dr5 is costly. It's rather reasonable for what they do and the service Dave provides, we should support them.

 

I am luckey they moved to here to my hometown, I don't have to pay for shipping ;o).

 

jt, Denver

[discpad]

JT, I have some more Good News: Last night while I was chatting with David, he told me that he now has another dip & dunk line for E-6!

 

Actually, I'm glad he is also doing some conventional lab work besides his proprietary B&W reversal work: Because of the low dollar volume, it's a great add-on for a conventional lab; but as a stand-alone business there's not enough to cover the overhead, as we saw when he moved out of the Photo District after 9/11; and then moved from LA to Denver to cut his overhead even further.

 

[sure wish he moved to Jersey City instead, and offered courier service; like Quaker (in Philadelphia) offers my home area to the Delaware Valley...]

[helenbach]

"This is an ORTHO clear-base film type, like the films that were used in the mid 1900's."

 

JT, could you explain why you call it an ortho film? It doesn't appear to be orthochromatic.

 

Thanks,

Helen

[discpad]

Helen,

 

David Wood told me last night that Scala is sort of like TechPan -- He didn't say anything that led me to believe it was an ortho (blue-sensitive) film...

 

Cheers! Dan

 

...Still recovering from the constipated service at B&H Sunday afternoon :(

[john_stockdale2]

I agree with Helen's comment: "It doesn't appear to be orthochromatic."

 

As I said above, the spectral sensitivity graph in the Agfa pdf named F-PF-E4_en.pdf shows _exactly_ the same graph for APX100 and Scala, so it looks as though it is no more ortho than APX100 (which isn't ortho either).

[jtj]

Hello again.

 

Yes, by all means. Scala film is an ORTHO film. Not to be confused with ortholith. It is a mild ORTHO film.

 

I don't have the means of graphing the film, but you can tell by 2 way's;

 

Since I am an old timer, I remember ORTHO films before PAN films were the norm. If you put it (scala) side by side with a PAN film, like FP4, it is easy to see.

 

Another easy method is to do densitomitor readings. If you have access to a 361T Xrite, it has a PAN / ORTHO setting. A PAN film will read the same on both settings, yet an ORTHO film will read different. You can also do this with a color 811 as well but you'll have to know what your looking at. Hope that helps.

 

jt, DENVER

[helenbach]

JT,

 

It sounds like you have a different definition of orthchromatic to the one I am familiar with, because you haven't mentioned spectral response at all. Could you explain further what makes a film 'ortho' by your definition?

 

"Another easy method is to do densitomitor readings. If you have access to a 361T Xrite, it has a PAN / ORTHO setting. A PAN film will read the same on both settings, yet an ORTHO film will read different."

 

That has nothing to do with the spectral sensitivity of the film, it has to do with the spectral absorbtion of the image on the film.

 

The similarity between your writing style and content, and that of David 'Doctor' Wood is remarkable. Great minds think alike!

 

Best,

Helen

[discpad]

JT, post some scans of your work souped in DR5! :)

[micah_henry]

Arthur,

I would say that Agfa Scala CAN be processed in standard B&W chemistry. I did so accidentally and got printable (but not ideal) negatives.

 

What happened was this: I had been shooting Agfa Scala and J&C Classic Pan 200 in the same camera (4x5" Graflex) and I got my 4x5" film holders mixed up in the darkroom when it came time to develop.

 

I loaded J&C and Scala into my 4x5" tank by accident and got some rather thin negatives--those were the Scala "negs." The developer I used was Rodinal at 1:50, but it has been over a year since that darkroom session, so I'm not sure on the time. But this CAN be done.

 

Those conditions under which that I developed Scala, however, were certainly NOT ideal. I haven't seen any suggested times for Scala processing to negatives (in any developer), but I haven't really searched extensively for it.

 

Hope this helps you out.

 

--Micah in NC

[art_arkin]

Thanks for your many and varied responses.

 

Though it's hard to find the time right now I might shoot a test roll and chop in into 20 odd little strips then ask a friend with a d76 hand line to let me borrow it for an hour or three and run a careful test.

 

How would you guys run such a test and do you think d76 is a bad choice for the emulsion that scala is?

 

I wonder what diafine would do to it... sure it'll probably die-a-fine death but you never know. Oh then theres the gigabit / sprur type developers for the copex type copy films. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

 

Arthur.

[jtj]

Ms. Bach

 

I am honored you compare me to such a smart fellow.

 

I'm sorry but I donﾒt know how to answer your question. Maybe you can tell us why this is not an ORTHO film. I only know how, by a densitometer reading. I have also been told this by a tech-rep for AGFA some time back. Maybe Dave can give you some answers. Give him a call why donﾒt you. I am just not that bright.

 

Dan, I donﾒt have a scanner I am embarrassed to say. I don't really like the computer. I cant barley fumble my way on this forum.

 

jt, DENVER

[helenbach]

Hi Dave,

 

Good to hear from you again with exactly the same story, exactly the same attitude. As before, all I'm asking is for you to explain to us what characterises a film as 'ortho'. 'Ortho', as I know it, is used to denote the spectral sensitivity of the film - a film that is not sensitive to red light, and that can be handled in red light (the practical use of the definition of 'ortho').

 

Scala is sensitive to red light, though not to the extent of all pan films, and images made with it look different from images made with ortho films. You can handle an ortho film in red light. Can you do that with Scala? Ortho films have other characteristics, and Scala can share some of those characteristics without being an ortho film itself.

 

So my simple answer to your question is "I believe that Scala is not usefully called an ortho film because its spectral sensitivity reaches beyond 600 nm, and that does not fit with what I understand 'ortho' to mean. Agfa's curve for Scala only begins to drop off at about 630 nm, diminishing rapidly to just over 650 nm. However, I would appreciate it if someone were to enlighten me about a different definition of 'ortho'."

 

You have written that the definition of ortho changed between 1950 and 2004 (you wrote that statement in 2004). Here are your exact words:

 

"there is no reason an ortho film cannot have a spectral range close to a pancro film. this is 2004, not 1950. all the maco ortho films will respond to filters as well, try it. agfa sets its curve to the scala process and this is why the film responds as it does. trust me, scala is an ortho film.

 

don't confuse these in-camera film types with art type or lith type films.

 

agfa keeps the scala process and film info very secret. there are some things we don't even know about the film.

 

i will work on a more technical response to these questions that frankly few of you will likely care about, at a later date, it will be lengthy." (End of quote from David Wood)

 

 

Could you explain to us what Scala's characteristics are that make it an ortho film?

 

Thanks,

Helen

PS I'm not all that bothered about the definition of 'ortho', but pretending to be one of your own customers is not cool. I'm sorry that you feel that it is necessary - the dr5 process is a very valuable alternative. Do you want to 'fess up? How many times have you done it?

Your helpful attitude is legendary, your process is legendary. Why mess your reputation up like this?

[discpad]

Guys -- Let's keep it from getting personal! I like both of you; and any sane reader will simply see this as a technical debate as long as you hold off on the "Howard Deaniac" (ad hominum) attacks.

 

David, I don't think JT is going to halt using your lab, since he's already a satisfied customer... Calm down, take a break, and quaff a Bloody Mary instead of extra-strength coffee! :)

 

Helen, my pal Lisa Fiel

http://www.LisaFiel.com

shot the 30 foot tall King Kong gorilla in Times Square with Scala @E.I. 200 both late morning & night with DR5 black & white (not sepia); and also shot some NPC: I mention this because Times Square is the biggest explosion of color this side of a NASCAR event; and it would be quite simple to find some blues & purples on the prints and compare them to the Scala/DR5-1 under the loupe.

 

Next time I go to Manhattan (maybe as early as this weekend) I'll look at the films & prints and post my analysis here. [Lisa doesn't have a scanner yet; but I'll take my slide copier and TRY to get some shots of the Scala with my S2 Pro... It'll be close enough to document what is going on down in the medium-dark blues.]

[discpad]

Drink a bloody mary or mimosa (OJ & champagne or sparkling wine) for breakfast; and grab a beer when sitting down at the computer... Better living through chemistry!

 

By the way, here's a tip that at first seems counter-intuitive: Espresso actually has very little caffeine! As it turns out, caffeine is a VOC (volatile organic compound) and it evaporates when the beans are roasted: The longer & hotter the roasting, the less caffeine remains.

 

I wonder if Patrick Gainer knows this?! :)

[helenbach]

I've shot plenty of Scala and I have no reason to doubt that the spectral response curves given by Agfa are correct. A response to 650 nm.

 

JT's spelling errors, phraseology, subject matter, references, use of capitalisation, attitude etc are all the same as DW's.

 

David,

 

Stop the personal attacks. If you feel that I have said anything wrong then please refer the matter to your lawyer, as you have done before, and take your problem off-line. There is no place on photo.net for this nonsense.

 

Best,

Helen

[bobatkins]

I think you'll find that "jt jones" won't be participating anymore.

[helenbach]

Nor will Helen Bach after the email Lex Jenkins has just sent me - unless my subscription isn't refunded, of course...

[lex_jenkins]

I regret that this thread has deteriorated into personal accusations. It isn't necessary and should have been handled privately. Normally I'd delete threads that have deteriorated this badly but instead I'm simply going to close it to prevent further participation. I want all of these comments on the record for future reference so there's no question about what happened.

 

If any of this carries over to other threads I'll have to consider temporarily suspending folks to allow a cooling off period. I don't like doing this but without a little intervention these discussion forums can quickly deteriorate to the point that nobody wants to participate unless it's for the fun of endless arguments.

 

I want to assure everyone that I value your constructive, on-topic participation. I work hard to make the b&w forums receptive to participation from industry representatives without letting such participation become mere hype and free advertising. In my experience, without participation from industry reps I see too much rumor and disinformation from well meaning but uninformed people. As it is, several industry reps have fled photo.net and we have to rely on people who know people in industry to give us insider perspectives. At the same time photo.net discussion forums are not to be used in place of paid advertising. But unlike some Marxist-leaning folks who yell "spam!" whenever a professional participates on discussion forums, I value the presence of everyone here.

 

So let's all take a deep breath and maybe take a few days off.