Five

[bens]

With the site's indulgence, I've set up a discussion page for people

interested in giving and receiving critiques, each of whom has agreed

to leave 5 comments on others' photos whenever they visit the site

over the next month, an idea that grew out of another feedback thread

posted earlier this week. Feel free to check it out at this link --

 

<a href=http://www.photo.net/photo/4062848>Five</a>

 

Its just a way to for people to find others interested in dialogues,

and to encourage comments generally. Brian, I trust its okay with

you. Thanks.

[mbb]

Idea is interesting and if works can benefit many people. I read your former posts and seems many people show a lot of enthusiasm at that moment. But....

 

From a few years experience here I am not sure if you and others can overcome "photographers' weaknesses". It seems to be quite normal in this society that most photographers (no matter what level) only are accepting positive comments. Often even slight negative critique, even if constrictive, is not welcome. Despite the fact that many ask for it (constructive remarks) they seem to get angry very easy if another person see their images in different light. Most will just stop responding to person leaving feedback but some will feel uncontrollable urge to visit his/her portfolio on the rampage mission. Very unhealthy behavior. Almost everyone has problem to accept fact that exceptional photographs are very hard to take and many talented photographers are lucky to get one or more a year or so. As my goals in photography are quite different from majority I, personally, have no problems with fact that almost all of my photographs are of a stock quality at the best. Many others want every photo taken by them to be the best of the best. How to deal with that? On another hand leaving fake nice comments is just pure wasting of time.

[bens]

Just to clarify, the agreement is to leave 5 comments on any other people's photos, not necessarily those who have also made the commitment, thanks.

[bens]

Thanks Mark, appreciate your points, honesty is important, and that includes pointing out not only what you like about a photo, but what you think can be improved or doesn't work. But I think Five is a more basic idea - a way to encourage more critiques and dialogues with others. But what we make of our critiques and dialogues, what we encourage from others, that's up to each of us.

[pawel_czapiewski1]

Mark ﾖ just like images comments will have the weak points too.

I think Ben's initiative is beneficial to the site.

[will king]

Mark, although you make a valid point, it has been my experience that most people I leave feedback for are fairly good sports. I for one appreciate constructive feedback, really I do. Hence, the word constructive. I have had some clowns leave "this photo sucks" or "I will rate a 1/1 because you used photoshop" That's when I fire back with both barrels. If someone leaves honest feedback as to why they did not like my photo or a certain aspect of my photo, than I really do appreciate that and I respond accordingly. It's all in the approach. I make mit a habit of prefacing my critiques with "In my opinion...." But I do agree that there are some hard heads out there that cannot receive any critism at all. I did run into one out of the 6 months or so I have been on this site.

I think Ben's initiative is a good one. This site needs more dialogue and less meaningless numbers. Maybe it will jump start that.

[mbb]

Ben and Will , as I already said, I fully agreed that if this idea works it will benefit people. My 'ifs' are coming from the past observations but the site is changing so can people. Especially with so many new comers new things may work among those. Even if only a group of people will benefit it is still worth it to try.

<P>

As long as ratings are dominating and decide about exposure on this site, comments are going to be way behind, which is a pity I agree.

<P>

Another human thing (not only photographers) is a fact that most people see their friend' work as better compare to work of somebody they dislike. I think one has to have professional attitude to be able switch off personal feeling about author before starts looking and critique somebody's work. If you can attract a few of those then your mission can really be accomplish. Somehow almost all of members here whose critique could be very valuable stay away from doing that. Probably because of reasons I pointed above. Anonymous comments system could help a little but would open huge can of worms and opportunities for unprofessional members so, I would vote strongly against it. Not to mention that anonymous opinion does not have that much value in my eyes as a signed one. Wishing luck with the project, Mark

<P>

P.S.

<P><I>Mark ? just like images comments will have the weak points too</I><P>

Pawel I am not sure I understand your statement. I know I have weak points but you probably had something else in your mind.:)

[laurie_m]

How someone responds to constructive criticism will dictate the usefulness of future feedback.

 

Most of us tend to get what we really want from this site. It just takes time to find the other photographers that are willing to share their honest opinions.

 

It's a valid point that familiarity can lead to more "freindly" comments. That said, over time, the tendency is to evaluate the posting of a "friends" work relative to their prior postings. Also, the more accomplished a photographer is, the more likely I am to nit pic their photo. They don't need me, or anyone else, to tell them the basics. If something is OOF or a highlight is blown, it was likely intentional-an artistic choice, not an error. Of course, that doesn't mean I'll agree.

 

AND....when a photographer challenges constructive comments, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Discussing choices and opinions, not just accepting them is where the real learning begins. Of course, it needs to be done respectfully.

 

I've had my share of negative feedback. I often challenge the commenter to elaborate. In my history on the site, my challenging a comment has only led to one nasty exchange. Those odds aren't that bad.

[bens]

Thanks, interesting thoughts.

 

Anyone reading, if you'd like more critiques, try Five. It operates on the theory that you have to give to receive; the depth of your comments is entirely up to you.

 

As I write this, 36 folks in a couple of days have agreed to participate, and there's always room for more. Just leave a note here, or visit the informal discussion page (link in my first comment above) and leave a note there, and I'll be glad to add you to the list.

 

Hopefully we can learn something from each other. Thanks.

[mbb]

Just let me make a few things very clear. Overall I never criticize this site much. For $25 it offers plenty benefits. I can truly say it is a bargain. Problems with ratings and some administrative rules never were serious issues to me. Now when I lost completely interest to make suggestions it really does not matter at all. When I signed here in the past I had this unrealistic hope that I can have an extra value benefit of help from others with choosing among some of my better shots. As has been said many times before, many photographers are often the worst judges of their own work. I suffer from that syndrome sometimes. What I quickly learned here is that this was too much to ask with solid rock evidence. Some of my few good photos received here low ratings and lets call it unserious comments. Good that after deleting them I rather followed my own judgment (somehow correct one at that time). In fact I also had only one time very unpleasant exchange of opinions topped with promises to easy defeat my work in future. Never saw the guy's name later outside PN but it was enough to back off and do not take seriously most comments and promises here.

 

What I can agree about 'five' proposal is that it will help some people to find out if they images are found likeable or not by wider audience. As this can be valuable to many, benefit here is obvious.

[bens]

Mark, thanks, that's interesting. I had a professor who once said "where you stand depends upon where you sit." As an amateur hobbyist, I may have different hopes than you for what I get from the site. I basically like learning from and connecting with people around the world interested in the same hobby. it still amazes me that the site gives us the chance to do that.

 

Comments, we all have to take them with a grain of salt, as it is hard to know where the viewer is coming from often times. And context for a photo -- its purpose and directed value for example, is very hard to communicate when showing an individual picture to strangers.

 

But that said, wow, what an access point to other photographers, at least from where I sit, which is a decidedly self-taught amateur with admittedly limited training and understanding of the art. Unfortunately, though, given your tremendous talent, I may get more from you than you can get from me.

[mbb]

Thanks Ben for your kind words, too kind in fact. I am amateur hobbits as well. By definition (at least in States) pro is the one of having more then 50% income from photography. I am not sure if I ever reach that point. Maybe, I hope, if I ever retire.:):)

 

I never use 'pro' criteria to influence my judgment of the photograph. Pro can be a passport photo shooter as a matter of fact. If you check winner's entries in large international competitions you will be surprise how many 'amateurs' photos are winning. As a recommendation order some past catalogues (they more like coffee table books worth every penny you spend) of TRIERENBERG SUPER CIRCUIT (formerly Hasselblad) http://www.supercircuit.at/ . It maybe depressing feeling at the first moment but you have to remember that those 400-600 photographs were chosen from about 50000 entries worldwide. One of the best tools to learn and best resource to find out about what is going on recently in photography in all genres. It should be recommended here to compare before someone rates 7/7 any photo.

[mbb]

And never type fast

 

Hobbyist not hobbits :). But I like Tolkien anyway.:)

[bens]

Thanks Mark. Your work was one of the portfolios that got me into this, came across it early on and marveled for some time over it. Thanks also for the link.

[mbb]

You are very welcome Ben. A super benefit of entering this circuit is fact that those are 4 competitions running at the same time. Only a few are getting awards but a real value in evaluating your work is acceptance especially if your image is accepted in all four salons. All accepted work (photographer name and title of his/her image) is printed in the catalogue. And they are not accepting everything what was sent.

 

Just for record. I am not affiliated with this circuit at all. .

[davidmccracken]

Being that there is probably more talent on this site that I don't know about than talent I do, I am a little confused by this idea. There are people on this site that do comment as much as possible on the work of others. Although it may not be your intention, you are creating a sub group within a very large community.

 

Having said that, I do tend to comment and rate photos of people who contribute to the work of others.

 

I really don't know what you are trying to achieve?

[bennyboy]

David,

 

There's no hidden agenda, it's simply about people comitting to making 5 critiques each time they visit the site (time permitting), who, how, what they choose to critique is up to them but the hope is that the critiques will be considered and broadly brushed against the 'canvas' of photo.net.

[bens]

David, my thinking is pretty much as stated here, <a href=http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00F1TY&tag=>in the previous feedback thread</a>, and at the Five discussion page. If its a "group" its a completely open one, just a way to encourage commenting and dialoguig on photos among the entire community. Don't know why that would be objectionable, certainly don't intend it to be.

[davidmccracken]

Forgive me. I just don't get it. P.N is an open forum as it is. People use it in different ways. While I agree that critiques are more helpful than ratings, it is a ratings based site. (Anonymous ones are preferred.) Few of the people mentioned in the link are interested in ratings (as long as they are not low ones.) It is also my experience that few people on this site are actually looking for critiques.

 

Forgive me! I am just not getting this!

[bens]

Its all good, David, thanks for asking.

[laurie_m]

David, This is really just a way to encourage people to post more comments and worry less about rates. It's not a formal critique circle, or even a sub community, it's a way to encourage people to participate more fully in the broad PN community. It's just a list of people who've committed to make at least five comments each time they visit the site. Hopefully those comments will be well considered.

 

I guess you could say it's an example for those who express dissatisfaction at the lack of comments they get on their photos. Yet...they really don't comment that much themselves. There are a number of people on the list who were already posting at least five comments a day and already getting a fair number of comments on their work. I think for them, it's just their way of supporting Ben's assertion that comments are more meaningful than rates and you have to be an active participant on this site if you want others to take the time to offer their opinions.

 

While some people are really just looking for nice words, there are those, myself included, that welcome suggestions for improvement. Either way, over time, people usually end up developing dialogue with those who offer the type of feedback they're looking for.

 

Of course, you already comment regularly, pay little attention to rates, and have an extensive loyal following (myself included), so it's no surprise this seems redundant to you.

[bens]

yeah, what she said . . . thanks laurie for your eloquence. come to think of it, i did get the idea after a few threads recently of people complaining about the lack of comments, forgot about that.

[davidmccracken]

Ben (and Laurie) I am not disagreeing with you in any way, I am just saying I don't fully understand it.

 

I never rate anything anonymously and so I am not helping anyone on this site have their photographs seen more by others. (I do not think that is your intent anyway!) I genuinely do believe that comments are more important than ratings but this is a ratings based site. Although I do not rate anonymously, I do rate everything I comment on.

 

I tend not to bother with people who do not bother themselves. If I see a photograph from a photographer I have never seen before I look at how long they have been a member, how many ratings and / or comments they give. If they are active participants, then I actively participate with them too.

 

A lot of people on this site do not speak English or are not comfortable writing in English but a lot of these people rate pictures. I do not think these people should be 'excluded.'

 

What I am trying to say is that I think it is all futile. There will still be photographers who only post images and do not bother to rate or critique others. There will still be the annoying low ratings without comment. (Personally I think all ratings are meaningless without comment!)

 

I wish you good luck in achieving what ever you want to achieve. However, I feel the only way this would work is if everyone was forced by site rules to leave a comment if they rate. We know from previous forum postings that this isn't going to happen any time soon.

[bens]

David, thanks for taking the time to write more thoughts, so much so i feel compelled to give a few in response out of respect for your effort.

 

I can only speak for myself. I am not trying to change the pnet system. i've made suggestions in the past about incentivizing comments without altering ratings (i think they can be useful but have their limits, it sounds like we have similar sentiments), but the site has its own agenda, which i respect, and it appears to focus on the ratings system. that said, i don't see this as a rate-based site; it makes commenting very easy, and its always been a part of its agenda. but i agree there is more attention to ratings.

 

all i am trying to do is encourage more commenting, not discouraging ratings. why? because i enjoy that part of pnet very much, learning and connecting with others about photography has meaning for me. my chances of making the trp are fairly low on average, so how else to get dialogues going? so i just thought, who else shares these sentiments? what's a way to turn the negative postings about comments into some positive effort? and then I realized if i set up a page, the people who share this sentiment could be more easily identified. that's about it.

 

as far as excluding, i would not be a part of anything that excluded. if you look at my profile, you will see i have both rated and commented in ample numbers, and done it across many many lines and boundaries with many many many people, new and old, strangers and acquaintances, for the entire almost four years i've hung around here, and received such in return. Five has its limits in language, but if people wanted to post in their native tongue as part of a participation there, it would be GREAT. if anyone wants to give a translation of anything i wrote on the Five page (link in first message above) in english to me (my only fluent language, unfortuately), i'm glad to post it on the page. this idea has no limits, no closed doors, no exclusion. its not some sort of organized group even in my mind. its just people who have agreed to make five comments whenever they visit the site over the next month on ANYONE's work, and are identified in one place together if they want to venture into dialogues with people perhaps more inclined to do the same by their indication of their Five commitment.

 

thanks for taking it seriously. i hope this helps a little more for you to see where i am coming from.

[afs760bf]

There are several threads each week complaining that the writer is not getting enough comments. This is really not about ratings, since visibility is determined by software, and no particular photo will be visible for long.

 

So I think it's great that we have almost 40 folks agreeing to comment on at least five photos when they visit. I would think that would have to result in at least a few more comments. I've already had several comments left as a result of this. And I take everything under advisement. I have a lot to learn, so it's all good for me, whether people like my photos or they don't - if they'll just tell me why, it will help. Best Regards - keep the FIVE.