A lab offering custom ICC vs submitting AdobeRGB or sRGB?

[marissa_c._boucher]

We are looking to switch to a new lab for 90% of our printing. We

have been using The Edge in Australia who exclusively works with

Adobe RGB files; which is our color space.

 

The problem is that it's just not quick enough turnaround for our

basic printing needs. My question is, is a lab that has custom ICC

printer profiles for me to convert my images to before submitting

more accurate than a lab who simply asks for files being converted

so sRGB? Would that work 100% issue free from capture to print?

 

My concern is if I shoot everything in AdobeRGB and then convert my

profile to sRGB before sending to print I may be damaging the color

in my final print. Then again, a local lab we use sometimes has

custom ICC profiles that I convert to before sending to print such

as a matte icc, gloss icc, etc and I get a decent result. This lab

makes way to many mistakes on orders though to stay with.

 

We're so torn because every pro, every seminar, and all word of

mouth points to pros using the Adobe RGB color space. sRGB is

scoffed at by every pro we've ever seen or heard. Pros meaning

Wedding and Portrait photographers.

 

It's difficult because very few labs support Adobe RGB, and if they

do they don't seem very warm to the idea vs. sRGB. Sometimes I just

want to switch exclusively to sRGB to make things easier but the

last thing I want is for my photos to lose color quality if that's

the case. Or, if future printers will handle Adobe RGB's wider gamut

properly and then I have to switch back.

 

More than anything I'm just irritated that there isn't just an

industry standard color space in this industry. I'm sick of battling

with sRGB or AdobeRGB, why can't there be a solid choice in the

matter? I don't want to choose based on preference, I want to choose

based on consistent capture to print. It just seems like such a

frustrating aspect of digital where I'd rather spend my time

worrying about shooting rather than what color space to use and

who's going to be able to accept it. Or all the time I have to spend

converting profiles, etc. Batch or not, I don't want to spend all

this time with this nonsense.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. Just looking for some direction in this area

so I can choose a lab and be comfortable from capture to print.

 

Thanks,

Weston

[bruce_watson1]

<i>Real World Color Management: Industrial-Strength Production Techniques</i> by Bruce Fraser, Chris Murphy, Fred Bunting.

[blumesan]

I certainly agree with your general sentiments. So my advice would be to look for a lab that will accept your images with whatever working color space you choose to use (Adobe RGB in your case). This should not be an obstacle to any good professional lab. Whatever the color space of the original image, the lab will have to use an appropriate printer profile to convert the file for output to their specific target (printer, paper). They should be able to perform this conversion from any standard working space (sRGB, Adobe RGB, wide gamut RGB, etc.)

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Ed_Ingold]

If your image is edited on a calibrated monitor, you should have no need for a "special" profile for a minilab printer. sRGB works best, but many can work with Adobe RGB just as well. sRGB is the color space of choice for printing or display on non-color-managed systems. If your lab falls in that category, get another lab or hope for the best. (My local Wolf Camera shop does an excellent job of printing from sRGB or Adobe RGB files, yet remains clueless about color space and management. They do their drill properly, without understanding what and why.)

 

Minilab printers are periodically "calibrated" using the manufacturer's procedures and standards. If this is done correctly, that "calibration" is all that's necessary. If you don't get good prints from a lab, change labs - the problem is personnel and management.

[john_driggers]

I am a little confused by the question because I can't separate your colorspace choice question for shooting (sRGB vs Adobe RGB) compared to your comments about sRGB/Adobe RGB/custom printer profiles to match your previsulaization to a specific printer/paper.

 

As I understand things, photo printers (Fuji Frontier, etc) are manufactured and set up to expect a 300 dpi sRGB file. Work hard to give them something else and their internal software will convert it to 300dpi sRGB--meaning you may not get what you expect out of the other end of the printer because the printer has interpreted it since you didn't give it what it needs.

 

So the endpoint of your workflow should be a 300 dpi sRGB file.

 

If a custom printer profile is avialable from the printer, what you'll get is a "calibrated" 300 dpi sRGB profile that is perfectly matched to the software, chemistry and paper for that printer. But it is still 300 dpi sRGB. You use the the custom profile to get a really good soft proof on your monitor. Assigning the custom profile to the file's color space locks things up so that the colors you see at home are the colors you get in your print. But it's all just a really fine-tuned sRGB arrangement.

 

Going back to your workflow. If you shoot and manipulate/photoshop in Adobe RGB, fine--keep doing that. But assign sRGB (or the custom profile for the printer) as your profile for soft proofing your work (i.e. previewing how it will look when it comes out of the printer).

 

When you are done manipulating/photoshopping and are happy with your soft proof, assign sRGB (or the custom profile) as the color space, save as an 8 bit TIF or JPG/max quality (the printer will convert to 8 bit if you don't--Photo printers are 8 bit devices) and send it off to the printer.

 

That workflow gives you max control. It also assumes you have a correctly profiled monitor.

 

If you want minimum hassle, profile your monitor, shoot in sRGB, leave that as the color space and send your finished file as 300 dpi jpg/max quality to your printer. You'll be in a 100% sRGB workflow, matched to the printer, and should have no surprizes.

 

Labs that "support" Adobe RGB mostly just "accept" Adobe RGB and let the machine convert it sRGB and hope it doesn't come out too bad. Those who "actually support" it usually have their own in-house conversion routine and convert by hand before printing. Then they preview/tweak" the file before sending it to the printer. A pain for them and often an extra cost service.

[erik scanhancer]

A lab that is able to send you their own custom profile for printing is probably a lab that

understands more of this issue than most others. A minilab will never print in the full

Adobe RGB color space, nor will it in the sRGB space. The actual printing space is printer

specific. Most minilabs assume sRGB files for consumer simplicity though. It will be quite

close to the actual color space of the printer/paper combination.

 

I sometimes make custom printing profiles for minilabs, but usually it is very difficult to

make the operator understand how to take real advantage of it. In their printer software

they'll have to find a setting where the internal "color management" (and determination)

can be turned off. A lot of minilab interfaces don't even allow for that. They're like the all-

automatic snapshot camera's that their customers use. Many operators are just as dumb

as their customers too. And most printer software does not read embedded profiles to use

for conversion to the printer specific profile. Your lab would have to convert your images

separately from their printing machine on a computer, in Photoshop for example. I don't

expect a fast lab to do this for you, so you'd be better off with their custom profile to do

the conversion yourself. Just don't forget to ask them about the rendering intent their

profile is designed for. You'll need to specify that for your conversion.

 

My own lab is using a profile that I made for them. I convert all my images to it before

submitting to the lab. When I deliver a digital file they won't touch it. Just print with the

standard settings that are required for the use of the profile. Of course they use the same

profile for their other pro customers. All the lab has to do is keep a close eye on their test

strips everyday, to make sure that the profile actually makes sense.

 

So my advice to you is: go talk to the actual operating people at the labs that you have in

mind and see if they know what they are talking about. If they don't, go to the next lab on

your list, unless they indicate to be interested to be educated by you (which you can only

do if YOU know what you are talking about).

[Ed_Ingold]

John R. said "When you are done manipulating/photoshopping and are happy with your soft proof, assign sRGB (or the custom profile) as the color space, save as an 8 bit TIF or JPG/max quality"

 

You are confused on the difference between "assign" and "convert" profiles. If you assign sRGB to an Adobe RGB file, you redefine the meaning of the numbers, losing the color intent and generating gross color distortions.

[john_driggers]

Uh, sorry---I meant convert--my post was so long I got sloppy in my language.

 

John

[blumesan]

It seems that most of the answers assume you will deal with a "mini-lab" where the "technician" is a guy who, last week, was flipping burgers at MacDonalds. If it's quality you are after I stick with my original recommendation. Find a professional lab that will accept your images in whatever standard color space you routinely use. If they provide you with a printer profile that you can use for soft proofing, so much the better. The downside of this alternative is that such a lab may be a bit more expensive and the turnaround time a bit longer. You have to choose.