Bokeh, do I need a Leica?

[AntonioC]

Hi, excuse me if this is off-topic here, but I've come to love this forum and the kind attitude of people here.

 

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Before knowing photo.net, and especially this forum, I didn't even know what bokeh was. Now I'm starting to think of it, and trying to use it as a tool to strenghten the composition. Looking at the picture posted below, how would you define this bokeh?

PS, it was taken with a 24mm nikkor, at 2.8.

Is it so far from leicaesque bokeh?

PS: it's not intended as a lame attempt to get critiqued, it's just something which makes me curious.

Thank you

 

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http://www.photo.net/photo/382864&size=lg

[Robin Smith]

Bokeh looks fine to me, I doubt I could tell it apart from a Leica

24mm. Usually one does not think of extreme wide angles on bokeh terms

as the depth of field is large. 35mm and up is usually where "bokeh

analysis" really takes off.

[richie chishty]

Antonio:

 

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Very nice and smooth bokeh! I used to own this Nikon lens and was

always pleased with the rendition of the out of focus areas of the

image. I also thought this was one of Nikon's best lenses. So

the 'bokeh' here is certainly 'leicaesque'. By the way, not all

Leica lenses have smooth or good bokeh!...............

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Some times hard to notice bokeh with such wide angle lenses, but your

picture shows it, and looks good, I have a 24 from nikon too, but

never seen an out of focus rendition yet, what about the bokeh of the

wine on the table? cheers!

[andy_piper2]

1) Very nice picture.

 

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2) USUALLY the bokeh of a lens is different for out-of-focus

backgrounds than it is for out-of-focus foregrounds. because of how the

light rays cross paths in front of and behind the film. This is why the

Nikon 105/135 DC "variable bokeh" lenses have plus AND minus settings.

This is pretty evident in the pre-ASPH/APO 35/90 Leica Summicrons,

which tend to show some 'bright-ring' bokeh in OOF backgrounds and

softer renditions (like your 24) in OOF foregrounds.

 

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3) There is some variation of opinion as to whether 'good' bokeh refers

to a smooth TRANSITION between focused and unfocused areas, or to the

smooth rendering of the actual OOF areas themselves. I personally think

that both attributes make a contribution. Your 24 seems to handle both

well.

 

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4) IMHO, IF (note IF) Leica lenses have any overall advantage in

'bokeh' rendition it has as much to do with tonal rendition as with the

actual optical paths of the light rays. If two lenses form otherwise

identical images, the one with a longer highlight tonal scale may give

the APPEARANCE of smoother bokeh. The joke on us rangefinder users is,

of course, that we can't see ANY bokeh until we look at the film - we

have to imagine it through the viewfinder using experience.

 

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5) Finally, of course, some folks really only care about the sharp

parts of the picture. Millions of great pictures have been made without

any thought given to the 'bokeh' involved. But IF some part of the

picture is going to be OOF, IMHO, it's good to know whether it will

support, detract from, or be neutral in relation to the sharp area and

(as you said) the overall composition. Photographers are responsible

for ALL parts of their pictures, not just the focused parts.

[albert_smith]

Seeing bokeh in wide-angle shots is usually hard because a lot of

shots have most of the out of focus (OOF) area behind the subject.

You did something very nice here by putting a lot of the OOF in front

of the person, since the focus falls 2/3rd behind and 1/3rd in front

of the focus plane, you therefore maximized the potential for having

visible blur. Very nice shot!

 

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For what it is worth, I am a Nikon using Leica guy, and have very

good experiences with many older MF Nikkors. Leica has a better

range of lenses with good OOF blur effect, but there are several good

Nikkors too. I'd pick the 105mm f/2.5 Nikkor over the 90mm Elmarit M

at full aperture any day... not for the subject, but for the

background that the subject is surrounded by.

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Al are you sure of what you have just said, you can untide the Saint

World Bokeh War; actualy I´m very interested in test that lens (nikon

105/2.5); but I just haven´t got my hands on one; can some one share

some comparison?

[godfrey]

Hmm. I had three of the Nikkor 105/2.5s over the years and I

prefer the Elmarit-M 90/2.8 over them. Although I have to admit

the 105/2.5 is very very fine, one of the truly legendary Nikon

lenses.

 

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Many manufacturers have made lenses wth fine imaging

qualities, but you see Leica and Zeiss on the top of the lists in

this regard more consistently than most others. It's almost as if

sharpness is easy and blur is a pain... :-)

[albert_smith]

Roberto,

 

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My choice of lens preference is simply my preference. I don't think

that anyone has quantified bokeh, so since it can't be measured, you

either like it or you don't. More important than my preference,

which may be jaded by knowing how much I have spent on this gear, is

that people that I photograph that have no knowledge or interest in

the photographic process consistently choose the Nikon as the most

flattering, (not the sharpest), and for a lens dedicated for

portraits, this can't be ignored. I would always choose the Elmarit

M when extreme detail is required, like counting every brick in a

building, but I don't want to see every wrinkle and pore, and neither

do the people that I shoot. This is a case when the winner of an MTF

contest might not be the best tool for a specific task.

 

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As I have said, I don't have a scanner or website, but I would be

more than happy to mail some shots to you to look at. I did some

side by side Nikon and Leica shots... same face, same aperture, same

light... so the only difference would be the slight reduced scale of

the 90mm over the 105mm lens. E-mail me if you would like to see

them.

[iván]

Hi, Antonio:

 

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I think Roberto is right and a battle was initiated by your posting.

It already begins to show.

 

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In order to heat up things I brought a <a

href="http://www.photo.net/photo/295021">Leica

photo</a> that also shows some boke in the foreground though due to

an old 9cm f4 Elmar and a mineral water bottle instead of a wide

angle lens and wine bottles in order to further stress the comparison.

 

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Intended comparisons are about bokeh only. I like your photo better

because of the graphic quality of your composition.

 

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Andy: thanks for your excelent note.

 

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Regards, friends

 

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-Iván

[iván]

Sorry ! ! ! I don´t know what happened.

 

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The rest of the message explained that I was contributing a <a

href="http://www.photo.net/photo/295021">Leica

photo</a> also showing bokeh in the foreground to allow noting

differences/similitudes. Further more, this Leica bokeh is due to an

old 9 cm f4 Elmar and a bottle of mineral water instead of a wide

angle lens and bottles of wine in order to stress the comparisons.

 

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Comparisons are intended to bokeh content only. I like your photo

better because of the more powerful graphic composition.

 

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And thanks, Andy. Excelent note.

 

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Regards, friends

 

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-Iván

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Interesting picture Iván, even a 90 elmar, let me tell you I´m a

defender of that lens, I´ve had it for many years that feel it so

close, but now I don´t use it much, but I have some pictures to show

what I have done with it, hope I get on well with my newer 90/2 as I

did with my elmar.

 

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About the bokeh war, well I was just kidding my friends, but it is

true that I´m very interested in known the qualities of that lens,

you know Al, out of focus imagen in a picture has interested me since

a few years, and I have understand more of it thank´s to post and

pictures here, of course I want to see that Al, hope you could post

them here, so it wouldn´t be so expensive, but at the same time this

is a great oportunity to have some of your work

[brian_david_stevens]

I love my nikon 105 2.5 took this on it

<img src="http://www.35mmf8.org/remembrance/rem01.jpg">

[steve_wiley]

I've seen a lot of comparisons between lenses regarding bokeh

posted here, but has anybody ever factored in developers? A

high definition developer will render an out of focus background

differently than D-76. Just a thought.