photo of a dead child

[h._p.]

Morality is a slippery customer, much in demand by hypocrites and fools.

[tvih]

Ah yes, these issues... usually when reading these, I can but shake my head when I remember examples of it being taken too far.

 

For example, there was this one shot of a few Finnish people, I think they were kids, in a family sauna, if I recall correctly taken by their father through a window, showing nothing "critical" - a perfectly normal, non-offensive family shot for any Finn. But of course, he put it on a photo site, I think it was PhotoSig, and of course immediately he got accused all the way from bad taste to child pornography, for crying out loud. How ridiculous.

 

Americans are perhaps not the only nation that tends to go borderline �berhypocritic more often than I even care to think about, but they are definitely the most known example. And by this I don't mean to say every american is like that, but it seems to be a sadly common trait.

 

Too many people really seem to have lost any sensible perspective to life, since basically EVERYTHING is offensive to them. A good example often encountered in photography sites is nude pictures, every picture or thread containing such material (even only implied or partial, "safe" nudity, such as the mentioned breastfeeding photos) has to be flagged with capital warnings and whatnot, while for example in Finland it wouldn't be any sort of big deal, nor do I see any reason it should be. How people that are so concerned about stuff like that can even procreate is beyond me. I guess they have to keep their eyes shut during the process, or use artificial fertilization.

 

When perfectly normal parts of life can't be photographed and shown, something is quite wrong, as long as the subjects of the photo aren't offended, and in the case of photojournalism, even that can't always be fully avoided, taking the "bigger picture" into account.

 

And about Jacques's photo - who's in the wrong, the people trying to make the person who has taken to look bad because he takes a photo of a less fortunate person, or the photographer? No contest. It's another thing to take shots that ridicule people, that applies to every person, but to NOT take photos of a person simply because he doesn't fit a norm is an insult to such people. In my opinion the same goes for, for example, taking pictures of homeless people and similar - hypocritics call those shots "social porn" and taking advantage of the less fortunate (and this seems to be quite common even in Finland and the rest of Europe). I guess it's again people wanting to sweep the truth and reality under a carpet. If the shot isn't about ridiculing in such a case, it is valuable photojournalism that should make people face the truth. Same goes for war photos and so on.

 

Well, this again ended up being a damn long reply. I'm not a very good writer, so I'm not sure how my points come up. I don't mean to insult anyone with this, and these are just my opinions, but the way I see it, my opinions really shouldn't even be insulting to anyone but those who are quilty of the mentioned forms of uncalled-for hypocrisy.

[afs760bf]

"those who are quilty of the mentioned forms of uncalled-for hypocrisy."

 

That's why we have threads like this, isn't it? If we all had the same definition of "uncalled-for-hypocrisy" there would be no hypocrisy that was uncalled for. All there would be was the "called-for" kind.

 

It is true we don't see many pictures of dead in Iraq, but I have seen quite a few - I think more than I have seen of the dead of the 9/11 attack on America, or the one on Spain, or the one on Britain.

 

Many things make up the human spirit, and those things are manifested in the differences that are implanted, fostered, and matured, by all our influences. Like Laurie, I am not a fan of the subject picture, but that is my opinion. It is, as we discover, a picture of the photographer, I guess. But it doesn't take much to get us going, does it? Cheers.

[cappoldt]

Teppo, the thing to remember is that in America, you have a legal right to believe in whatever you want - and be respected for it. That means no one is going to fire a bazooka at you for not believing in the same god...no one can tell you what political party you should belong to with a pistol at your temple...etc. Overall, that's a great thing - especially when you look at what goes on in other parts of this sometimes terrible world. Sure that doesn't happen in plenty of other "civilized" countries, either - but a lot else does. Let's talk about India's caste system, for example. How do you think many Americans view a life that is dictated to you before you're out of the womb? It's all relative.

 

Anyway, a side-effect, of course, is that when you apply such rules to their fullest and EVERYONE'S voice matters, you end up as the butt of jokes in more liberal countries, walking your hometown streets where an exposed breast with a baby suckling is considered shocking.

 

Of course, these same peoples that like to laugh at us often seem to forget that just a mere 80 years ago, it was common in the US to have lynchings take place in the Southern States, the prosecution of rape ever rare due to the woman's shame, and no one but white men in much of a place to vote. Are we hyper-sensitive and overly PC? Maybe. But frankly, I'd rather have to listen to someone put me down due to my nationality and chuckle than not live in a society that's progressed as far as it has. OK, so TV and movie violence, and wakes, aren't really "facing death regularly." From what I understand, NO ONE is entirely "comfy" with it. It is a part of life - but is it also to be art?

 

So laugh, shake your head - I don't think a majority here would really have it any other way.

[vivek iyer]

Chris, I am at a loss here to understand your readable post (I'll admit that Teppo's is a bit tooo long for me). Among the things you have addressed- from the little that I know of the country (mostly firsthand and very little or almost none from any 30 second TV clips)- the single most worrying factor concerning independent India (close to 60 years of its existence)is not the defunct caste system but the burgeoning population.

[cooper8168]

<i>That means no one is going to fire a bazooka at you for not believing in the same

god</i>

 

<p>Depends on your definition of "bazooka".

[cappoldt]

Vivek, agreed, maybe not the BEST analogy, as here in the US, discrimination is hardly dead.

 

However, from my understanding (some first hand from transplanted co-workers), the government there, while proclaiming caste discrimination illegal, also allows a lot of the discrimination to slide - in fact to a large degree, it's still encouraged. The lowest of the castes, while cleaning the septic tanks, would be raising quite the eyebrow that it was interpreted as "defunct."

 

The population problem, too, may not be as much an issue as economic flaws that allow such a large proportion of the population to be impoverished. . .and there too the still-breathing caste system plays in.

 

But alas, we're swaying from dead people photos...sorry about that:) It's the coffee!

[cappoldt]

Chris - good point;)

[lauriee]

Wow!

I had no idea that my opinons on a photo of a dead child would bring about so much debate! I'm glad to see I woke some of you up! LOL

 

First of all I am American and proud of it! I am probabley one of the most liberal Americans around. I belong to no organized religion...I support right to life and I investigate haunted houses in my spare time. I am the daughter of a Holocaust survior as my mother is a german/gypsy. I am lucky to be here at all since my mother is the only one out of her eleven brothers and sisters that wasn't steralized by Hitler and his men. So although I am American I am no stranger to other cultures. I was also married to a man from India for ten years and as I travel to Europe to visit my mother and brothers and sisters often...So please understand I am not your "average American"....My comments about erect penis' have absolutely nothing to do with this thread! LOL...I found that laughable. My gosh I'm a healthy 39 year old hetrosexual woman of COURSE I like erect penis' hahaha...but a mans body can be equally as sexy when his penis isn't erect! That was my point in the thread someone seemed to think was important to this discussion!

 

As for breast feeding mothers in Texas...Well I would probabley have been one of the women doing the feeding. I have also been a midwife's assistant and am fully in support of breast feeding mothers and their right to breastfeed wherever they choose!

 

So back to the picture.....A dead child would cause a reaction in ANYONES soul. If it didn't they are made of stone. I was concerned about why someone would post that for the world to see. What about the boys mother...Would she feel alright with seeing her dead son on the internet? Lastly the thought went through my mind about wheather or not we can just ASSUME that this picture was taken legally. Is there a possability that some psycho could have done something like this to a child and posted it here? Even as far fetched as that idea might seem. I couldn't just ignore the thought and not ask the question.

 

I have to tell you...there are some really unkind people on this forum....geesh!

 

Laurie

[vivek iyer]

Chris, I was born in India and grew up there till my late teens. Yet, by the time I left the country, I learnt enough to understand that it is a lot more complex than learning about Laurie's heritage. The stories you have heard second hand, some may be true. I had witnessed a few myself. Nothing to do with the existing rule of law and everything to do with misguided small groups. Personally, from my family (brothers, sisters and self) it is an amalgam of quite a few castes through marriage. Not common but nothing unusual either.

 

Laurie, Interesting to hear about your heritage. Only a few years ago, I became aware of Gypsies. Later, I was informed (from Mordecai, a prof from Jerusalem) that not all of them originated from Punjab (a region now in India and Pakistan). Complex history.

 

Regardless of our difference of opinions on the topic of this thread, I have to thank you from giving a big break about the ever popular ratings discussion prevalent here.

[lauriee]

Vivek,

Yes the gypsies do have a very complex history and they are not very good about allowing outsiders to come into their world either. So unfortunately the gypsy language and world is becomeing dilluted and almost non-exsistant. My mother was in fact only half "gypsy" her mother was full and was a fortune teller. However grandma married a German and ironicly her inlaws were Nazies and the very family that was commanded to do away with gypsies is the same family that hid and protected my mother and her brothers and sisters. Most of my aunts and uncles feel quite lucky to have been only steralized and not sent to a camp...Strange isn't it...My mother escaped the process because she had not begun her first mensus yet.

 

But back to the photo...I work with children. Every day all day...Naturally the possability no matter how small that this little boy was abused weighed heavily on my mind until I made the first post the next morning...If that's wrong...then there is much more wrong with the world than America can take the blame for! LOL

 

BTW...My father died in 2001 and I was in the room with him. I spent quite a long time with him after he passed and never once did I consider taking a photo and posting it on photo.net! LOL...He would have just DIED! OOPS...well you know what I mean!

[lauriee]

Ok! Well I worked up the nerve to go have another look and since October 4th the photographer has posted that the child is NOT dead and that it is indeed him!

So I left him this message to smooth things over before he finds his way here and I recieve 1's forever more on my rated photos! LOL

 

 

 

 

Oliver!

Oh my Goodness! You should see the mess I caused in one of the forums due to this photo! LOL...I am SO relived this is not a dead child! However I irritated several people with my worry that some psycho photographer might have murdered a child and posted him on the forum! I am slinking away now....back to the forum to share my relief and embarassment for not coming back here and making sure of what I was seeing! My apologies!

 

Laurie

[gib]

I remember the slaughter in East Timor a few years back. The US was slow to respond, the Australians went in more quickly. The French photographic magazine, PHOTO, published some horrific photos from East Timor. I happened to work with a fellow from Australia and I spoke to him about it and commended his country and their military for going in to stop things.

 

More or less the same time, the second Hannibal Lector film came out and was talked into going to see it for a second date, which turned into the date from hell, but more about that some other time. There is a scene where Lector has dinner, and cuts off some of Ray Liotta's character's brain, he is purportedly still alive at the time, for the evening's repast.

 

The PHOTO photos from East Timor included one that showed a man chewing on a severed human arm.

 

I tried to recalibrate the sense of showing Lector as entertainment but not showing East Timor as reality.

 

Maybe some one who is smarter/wiser than me (thousands of people I'm sure) can explain it to me.

[neild]

Laurie: LOL!

[byronlawrence]

I think one thing most of the people forget here on photo net, including the other day with the picture of the guy with the erection, is that photography isn't necessarily always art. this is a photography web site, not just an 'art' website. sure many of the people are interested in the artistic side of photography here but some here aren't they are more interested in the carnal side, or the photojournalistic side, or recording their lives side, or the travel side.. you name it.

 

a photo of a dead child is something that many here will not see very often and maybe not at all. it may not be artistic either. but it does convey a moment captured in time that many will not experience. It is sad in a sense that some find it offensive. it is sad that poeple find many things offensive because that is the root of social limitations which in form results in the rules we all live by. the more offended a society is at everything the more it limits itself.

 

The Rant >> (has little or nothing to do with photography and is mostly just a rant read this at your own risk of bordom to death):

 

the US is just a mild victim of this mindset just like any privileged society will be. there are many in america that aren't privileged too, there are americans who are educated. one of my pet peeves for the longest time was listening to foreigners (who came to america for it's secondary education) call americans dumb or uneducated, or spoiled or pampered. to me that was just an ignorant view propagated by media that they were ignorant enough to believe. I don't live in LA and play on the beach with Pamela Anderson. More than half of the united states is made up of hardworking blue collar kind of people. People who live and work in McDonald, or work in the factory down the street, or work as loggers, or as farmers, or as cattle farmers. they are all the hard working back bone that makes America what it is.

 

In the south many of these kind of people go to church on sunday and go eat out after church. the work 8 hour days monday through friday, and come home to a husband or wife who also does the same. Many of them see only get to see their children during this time, because most of their childrens time is spent at a school house were they get raise by the poeple who got general education degrees at the local community college. These people stuggle to pay bills to keep up with a life style that is the expected norm as presented by the media that inundates their lives. they sit down in the evenings and watch tv and see shows put on by the rich minority in the US. shows that depict violence and fear and tragedy.. like CSI, or the news. News that tells them the other half of the world hates them and that that other half of the world wants to see them dead. see things like the Oklahoma bombing or the stuff in NY. they then turn around and see their kids being influenced by other children, who have parents that don't care as much or can't, who lead their own children into dangerous parts of life.

 

then analysts ask why this back bone of America is so alarmist in it's being, why are they so offended by everything, why they want more rules, and more cops, and less guns, and less drunks on the corner hollering how the world sucks. they vote in presidents who they feel will help and believe the news about everything. they believe the news and the president and the rest of the media (which is their only tie to the outside world beyond their town) about who bombed some buildings that really, nobody knows conclusively 'who' did. then the Powers that be use the fear instilled by this to generate more fear. next thing you know you have more poeple supporting war than not. and in the end their will is directed in a ruthless manner to a society of people on the other side of the world who probably feel and live in similar manners. they work make kids and eat and go to bed, just to wake up again the next day to do it again. their media tells them the same thing about the other half of the world doing what it does.

 

It is the ignorant masses believing the less ingorant smaller masses all out being foolish. spinning around really fast on a spec of dust in a universe with uncountable specs of dust. every one of you reading this does nothing to very little out of habit. you get up in the morning and you get ready for the day. some of you get up in the evening and get ready for the night. most all of you then go do something called 'productive' for a required time, and then return to your domociles to do whatever else suits your fancy. some of you don't have to do the 'productive' stuff and can just sit all day doing whatever crosses your mind. like read this stuff on the monitor in front of you. stuff written by somebody you don't know in a place you have never been and probably never will be. when you are done with your day and playing with your toys, and reading really great or stupid stuff like this, you will get ready for bed maybe watch a little more of the boob toob and then go dream until habit takes you through to the next life. the average time many people make concious decisions about something that will make a difference in the world is about .00002 times a day.

 

Most people find things out of their routine disturbing. maybe Laurie is used to seeing pretty pictures of flowers and bees and things, and the picture of the little boy brought to mind what is normally out of sight and out of mind. it was out of her normal routine and disturbed her.

 

some how this thread all evolved into some debate of how she is an American and how the US is responsible for all bad things in this world and is blind to all of it. maybe the US is . Maybe the US doesn't respond to everything. but when a bunch of people in a country piss off the other half of the people in the country and they all start killing each other, or a tsunami wipes out half of the coastal regions along the Indian Ocean, at least the US responds some how. the US even responded to Iran's earthquake. Which foreign country responded to New Orleans being flooded? or Which country rallied donations from their average citizens when floods from the Mississippi wiped out farmlands in the central US? which other contries are aware of things like the Oklahoma bombing? Which other contries know what the klondike bar is named after?

 

bad things happen in the US too. kids killing other kids over a gram of dope. little girls who don't know better having trains run on them because they don't know better or are too drugged up to stop it. 12 year olds taking shotguns to their fellow students. at night walking through some places in the US is a dumb thing to do. People like david keresh holeing up in compounds. Poeple with vindettas against society sending them bombs in the mail. People mixing up fertilizer in trucks and driving them under big buildings filled with poeple. Most of the older generation in the US remembers when the government opened fire on it's own poeple. most of the younger generation remembers classmates opening fire on them.

 

Ignorant foreigners say Americans are blind to these things but we aren't. they know what death is and have seen it millions of times over. the tv helps us do that. there is some statistic that says the average american child has seen a 100,000 or so deaths by the age of 5, we get to see the deaths of people all over the world, war, epidemics, plague, natural disasters, all of it,, all America's responsibility to fix... but god forbid we police it too or reap the benefits of the society we help in good times (I am not so serious about that I think US foreign policy is bad we should leave you all to your own devices). So one nice member of this net would rather not see another depiction of death? and people say it is because she is american. do any of the foreigners know what one of the biggest industry in the US is? it is Porn. do you think that it is because we are american that we don't want to see some guy with a hard on. how is a hard on NOT sexual?, it is used to put INTO a person. saying it isn't porn is ignorant. Some of the most popular shows on evening television are about death. Is this because americans are blind to it?

 

Personally I support whatever the administrators of this website decide because it is their website. we pay them to have this environment. If they choose to delete a dick picture then that is their choice. if some yahoo wants to leave because of it then let them. if a lady doesn't like death but it is portreyed, and it is allowed the she needs to be able to express her feelings in a post were most of you express feelings on IMPORTANT things like ratings.

 

<< end rant (I hope I stepped on everybodies toes a little, I tried to cover all the bases, so if I missed on I am sorry. If you understand and/or empathize with this rant then .. yea baby rock on. but I will have you ALL know I usually don't post my opinions like this. so I hope tommorrow you will all forgive me and give all my pictures 7/7s.):) <div></div>

[byronlawrence]

damn byron that is a long post you are full of it!

[Spearhead]

I have several hundred photography books. Books of photographs. Many of the great photographers have photos of dead children in these books. It's not something to be disturbed by. It's a fact. People die, including children.

 

I find the reactions here about this to be bizarre. How will we know if we don't see the photos? How will we understand if we stick our heads in the ground and ignore what is real?

 

War is disturbing, I never see anyone (except maybe governments) saying don't look at photos of war. It's what's happening, if we don't see it, we don't know.

[lauriee]

whew! Byron you had a lot to say and thank you for speaking up! LOL...Can I just add a couple of things. I'm afraid by the time this is said and done...you will know more about me than you ever needed or wanted...but it does go along with all of this.

 

A couple of people have made it sound as though I have spent my life dancing on clouds and sprinkeling fairy dust. That I am too soft and should just go back to my suburban life and if I don't like it I should go find a nice landscape to stare at.

 

That probabley offends me more than anything else implied about me here. So I feel the need to vent..and rant and share who I truly am.

 

I am the product of a sick and dysfunctional home...LOOONG STORY and I won't bore you with the details...

 

I married young and had my first child by 20 and five years later I was a single mother with three children and then 12 years later a single mother with four children. I earned 18,000 a year. I have been homeless and I have been hungry. I've been without electricity and had my belongings repossessed. I have permenant marks on my body from physical abuse and then I turned around and married a man who spent the next ten years of my life being verbally abusive. I have experienced pain and trials in my life for sure! Those trials may not have made me a better American to SOME of you but they have made me a better woman and a stronger one!

 

I watched my dad die of lung cancer within three months of diagnoses and I've watched one of my best friends die of Aids as well as my favorite cousin. Life has been tough! However...I am not mad at America or even the men in my life that I allowed to treat me poorly. I accept my responsibility in the relationships and realize that I allowed it and at any time I could have stopped it by walking away. It's now three years later...EXTREMELY happy and through it all...I've raised some great kids. My oldest son leaves next week for Basic Training for the Marines. I live daily with the fact that he will most likely go to Iraq. So seeing a dead ANYTHING right now...bothers me.

 

I shared all of this not because I am expecting sympathy. NO WAY! I just wanted to point out that sometimes what you assume about people is VERY far from the truth.

 

Photography is something that brings me great joy! I can go out and find beauty and not only find it...capture it. It may not be art to anyone but me...but that's the beauty of it...I understand that concept totally. But again I say...(for the last time I promise) What kind of human would I have been to ignore it...A better American? No I don't think so...A better human? No I don't think that either. A more objective observer of photography? Ok..but I'd rather be able to sleep at night.

 

Done!

 

Laurie

[lauriee]

We all know people die...that point has been beaten to death here and my point wasn't that we shouldn't see death. MY POINT was if we allow people to photograph death ecspecially of children WHO monitors where the photos came from? In other words. If Joe Psycho wants to create a screen name and put up a portfolio of dead children...Is there anyone who is going to question where he is finding these children and how these children are dying? Or are we all going to say..."7/7 great photos psycho!" Of course there will be one drip that would give him 1/1...OOOOOH in this case.. that would be ME!

 

Laurie

[mattvardy]

"Which foreign country responded to New Orleans being flooded? or Which country rallied donations from their average citizens when floods from the Mississippi wiped out farmlands in the central US? which other countries are aware of things like the Oklahoma bombing? Which other countries know what the klondike bar is named after?"<p>

 

Byron, lest you forget like so many of your fellow Americans, <a href="http://www.historians.org/projects/GIRoundtable/Canada/Canada_Intro.htm">CANADA</a> is a good neighbour... and like many other countries, comes to aid you in disaster recovery and war efforts. My country plays a much larger role in American <a href="http://www.redcross.ca/article.asp?id=014588&tid=032">disaster relief</a> and <a href="http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/09/04/medical-supplies-to-New-Orleans0904.html">recovery</a> than you are aware, or so it sounds. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of Canadians are in your country right now, lending a helping hand after Katrina and Rita - if not physically in the midst of the relief efforts, then they're sending their money. And let's not forget that the Canadian Army is <a href="http://www.canadianally.com/ca/terror/terror_military-en.asp">fighting alongside the US Army</a> in the many "unfinished wars" across the globe that have been so hastily initiated by your president... <p>

Another fantastic thread btw... a great read. Thanks Laurie!

[mattvardy]

And no, I don't live in an igloo ;-P

[doris_chan]

"American media generally self-censor photos of the dead....."

 

In reality they only censor photos of the American dead. At the time of the Iraq invasion

there were no shortage of images of dead Iraqis in the US media - despite the hypocrisy of

attacking AlJazeera for showing American dead. Mainstream American magazines are

more scared of nudity than (foreign) death, I know of one image of an African famine

victim that was rejected by one of the big two news magazines because you could see his

penis.

 

"Ignorant foreigners say Americans are blind......"

 

There are also quite a lot of smart and educated foreigners saying this.......

[tvih]

Personally I didn't mean my reply as an attack against anyone particular, Laurie included. But I have to say, when one starts to think right away that the photographer could be some sort of psycho, it only shows how bad things are in the world. It really is quite sad, to say the least. Even psychos aside, why also by default assume the photographer has no permission from, say, relatives to take a photo of a dead person?

 

In any case, no photographing dead people for me in the foreseeable future, but another concert to shoot today :)

 

And as a side comment about the Katrina thing, from what I read in the media Canadian relief troops were in the Hurricane area long before official US relief troops. Kinda crazy.

[lauriee]

" But I have to say, when one starts to think right away that the photographer could be some sort of psycho,it only shows how bad things are in the world."

 

Yes it does show how bad things are in the world. EXACTLY my point.

 

"Even psychos aside, why also by default assume the photographer has no permission from, say, relatives to take a photo of a dead person?"

 

And why assume that he/she does? Basically what I'm hearing is "Dont ask Dont tell"....VERY SCARY! Just asking or questioning a photograph doesn't hurt ANYTHING or ANYONE...but ignoring it and assuming everything is peachy is what has caused way too many children to die or be injured and allowed many a psycho to get away with murder. I certainly didn't accuse this photographer of anything in my original post. I just questioned the apporpriateness of the photo. I've probabley helped him quite a bit since I'm sure many of you have been there to check out his portfolio! :-)

[cappoldt]

Jeez Matt! How did CANADA get into this? Here we go again. I think most Americans in tune with geo-politics are well-aware of Canada's contributions to US aid and economy. . .and especially MILITARY cooperation; just as you're aware of ours to yours.