What Makes a Critique Helpful to You?

[bens]

I ask the moderator's indulgence, as this is intended not for the

site management, but for people who post photos and want helpful

critiques of their work. What makes a critique helpful to you,

including from someone who does not particularly care for your

piece?

 

Perhaps by leaving a post here you can help someone who does not

quite know what to say sometimes to leave a meaningful comment that

helps you (like me).

 

When I post, anything specific about a work (about its composition

or tones, for example) gives me something useful to think about.

It also helps if a commenter includes what they like, if anything,

along with what they don't like -- as its as important sometimes to

know I am heading in the right direction as well as the wrong. I

don't see either direction as well as I would like at times,

particularly in trying things I haven't done much of before.

 

But I am sure there are many other perspectives. Thanks for sharing

your thoughts.

[james_oneill]

I don't need to know if someone liked it or not. What I want to know is why they liked it (or not).

[stephen hazelton]

I don't know of a specific item...if I did, I'd just look for it myself. But it's usually just the matter of having a second opinion in the first place that's helpful.

 

For example, a photo may contain some minor "flaw"- say, a telephone pole in the background. It doesn't bother me. So I just assume it doesn't bother anyone else either. And then someone says "It'd look a lot better without that pole back there." And I realize that maybe what I overlook sticks out like a sore thumb to others.

 

And a photo may be easy to shoot, easy to print, and you don't think a lot about it..but others really like it. That's helpful to know as well.

 

I find with really good photos, it's hard for me to find specific items that explain why I like them. I guess it means "everything" is right about the picture, and difficult to explain that. Similar on a shot with nothing much good about it...hard to say why it's bad, when there's just nothing good about it.

[john falkenstine]

Ben: I remember once making an incredibly STUPID remark about an image in the critique section. The poster of the image replied accordingly. (And rightfully so) I felt foolish. Since then I have been a bit more careful in my remarks. But how can I say that a party is headed in the "wrong" direction? Often the images reflect a cultural perspective on the subject matter, OR an attempt to reflect a cultural perspective. Questioning this "genre" often lights the fuse of anger. If I do not care particularly for a piece, I usually skip it, because my statements ALSO reflect MY cultural bias. One of the steps I try to take before offering a review is to check the technical data fields that accompany an image, or maybe..even to look at the portfolios of the poster AND his or her rating trends. This gives me an idea of what the poster is working on conceptually (or not) THEN I critique within the context of that "data" package. In this manner I might hold one given image poster to a higher standard than another one. (leaving a stain on the fake Persian carpet) It also affects my ratings of such images. A current situation that I find unfortunate is that critique has become sparing. Those who once engaged in it have burned out, gone on to do something else, or...in some cases are spending HUGE amounts of time complaining and bitching and then NOT engaging in what they really should be doing..being team players and engaging in the discourse/critique section provided under each image!

[john falkenstine]

But...what makes it helpful to me (I digressed) what I look for is critique from parties who are technically up on the power curve, or feedback from folks on their likes/dislikes on the image,,,to which I will always give a civilized reply.

[lauriee]

I think this is a great idea! :-)

I think there has only been one critique that really ticked me off! This gentlemen specificly hunted me down because I had given an honest and polite critique about a fabulous photograph except for the fact that the model was standing on what looked like an upside down trash can. Now this photo wasn't even this gentlemens photo...yet he came to my portfolio and rather rudely began to criticize one of my photos. It wasn't what he said actually (because he was correct.) but how he said it. If you want to criticize then you are missing the point here I believe.

 

There have been some fabulous people who have been genuinely honest about my work (ecspecially about the ones they liked of course!haha) and when they saw a flaw or something that wasnt appealing they approached it in a way that let me know what they noticed and (now heres the difference..) Explained to me how to fix it or make it better!

 

I think the computer gives people the nerve to be more rude than they would EVER dare to be in person...and unfortunately that happens everywhere not just here at photo.net.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to give my opinion on this!

 

Laurie

[jnicholson]

Honesty over fluff and honesty over spite. The critiques that work the best for me are polite yet honest.

[jbs]

No matter what is said, negative or positive, I only wish to know if you understand the direction. It is completely OK to not like an image but to Critique it you must understand something of it. Otherwise you are just Blathering away....

 

;)

Jay

[laurie_m]

I agree with John's approach. To offer valuable feedback, it's important to have a look at the whole portfolio.

 

If someone appears to be a beginner, I'm more likely to comment on just one thing that might be done to improve a photo and also balance that with a comment on something done correctly.

 

For more experienced photographers, I'm much more likely to nitpick on the technical stuff but comment more on the emotional impact relative to their prior work. Afterall, the technical stuff is just a tool or process.

 

For myself, I'm grateful for all honest and polite feedback even it the commenter ultimately hates my photo. The comments that I find most helpful will vary from photo to photo. The most helpful comments typically come from those who are more familiar with my portfolio as a whole. They have a baseline to judge wether my current post is an improvement over prior work. They also have a better understanding of my strengths and weaknesses. When it's clear the comments are thoughtful and considered, they hold more weight with me.

 

I don't think you can define a great critique any easier than you can define great art. We all learn differently and have different goals. There are several people on this site who offer great feedback but in very different ways. My short list includes about 8 people.

 

You for instance always offer very thoughtful comments and are always polite and encouraging. Salvatore Mele also offers fabulous critiques that focus on an emotional reaction but never overlooking the technical nuances that make a strong photo. Carl Root offers well considered comments in a very direct manner(some might say blunt). Chris Appoldt sprinkes his insightful comments with humor. Kathy Wilson, a relative newcomer to photography, also offers great and detailed feedback from a fresh perspective. The list goes on(see Jeremy Freeland, Robert Brown, Aaron Falkenberg, etc.)

 

All of these people have a very different style for commenting (and shooting) but they share one thing. Their comments are thoughtful and meant to be helpful, not just an ego building exercise for themselves. They tend to do more than just comment, they share their knowledge and passion for photography. Even if I don't always agree with their comments, I can't help but be inspired and motivated by them.

[orensztajn]

I like to know what is wrong with the picture I post, I got polites and rudes critiques sometimes (just a couple). That helps a lot.

It is a pity that I only get a few comment (no more than 2) per picture I post in CR.

I have comented a lot more, but thanks to PN I have improved a lot since I started here, so annyway it is working.

 

Why not a queue where you only can comment on pictures istead of rating them?

 

Rgds

[root]

Gustavo, there is a page for images marked for comments only . . .

 

Laurie, I must rush to my own defense by suggesting (rationalizing?) that the direct approach is simple and economical, and more likely to help sift out those who seriously want feedback from those that really don't want to hear it.

 

For my part, the most helpful comments are those that simply report what they see. Blunt is good, as long as it relates to the image rather than an expression of personal preferences. It could be technical, content, or a general impression . . . . and yes it does help to put the image in context with a larger body of work. Sometimes I'm surprised by what people are drawn to. I take full responsibility for some aspects of the viewing experience. Other observations go directly to the viewers' predispositions and imagination.

[laurie_m]

Carl, there is no need at all to defend your critique style. I happen to appreciate your direct approach just as much as that of Ben or Salvatore. I guess my point was that the best comments are those that are based on an honest, complete, and thoughtful reaction. Your comments, at least the ones I've read, reflect those qualities. I included you in my list because I thought you offered a great example of one style of critique I find useful.

[bens]

Hey, Laurie, I thought I was being direct! :)

 

Thank you all for expanding my notion of what a helpful critique can be. (Be glad if anyone else wants to share their thoughts as well.)

[afs760bf]

Now if you want to start a longer thread, ask what is NOT a helpful critique, such as:

 

1. nice, WOW, 4/4

 

2. I have a better photo of that subject - see my portfolio.

 

3. Why would you take such a picture?

 

4. Ask Ben how to do this better in PS.

 

5. I don't consider this artistic.

 

6. I don't like religious subjects - 1/1

 

We could make a whole catalogue.

Cheers.

 

PS, by the way, did you realize that there is an edit that does not allow you to put two exclamation marks in a row? I just got the message. 1984 has come and gone, hasn't it?

[bens]

Wow Barry! !

 

But here's the rub (and not just for Barry):

 

There's lots of grumbling about no comments being made with low ratings. But do you really want to hear someone say, something like, "I think this is about a boring subject, poorly composed, and underexposed." I admit, I have a hard time commenting on photos that I think are boring or poorly done in a way that will not offend the photographer. Yet, its been posted for feedback. And its in those situations that I most often will leave a rating without a comment.

 

So, do you want take it on the chin, really? What helps?

[orensztajn]

Thanks Carl you opened my eyes, I have been blind.

Now I see what the critique only means.....i totally missed that.

 

I will use it.

[root]

Barry, I disagree with #2. I think it can be useful to direct someone to a similar image, even your own, for the sake of comparison. I've done it many times to show mine or someone else's as being the same, better, and yes even worse (although I think I've limited the latter to my own uploads.)

[afs760bf]

Well, I don't mind being told that a photo is poorly composed, if the critic would offer a suggestion for better composition. And I don't mind being told that it's under-exposed, except that when displayed digitally, it's hard to really tell. What you're really saying in that regard is that your scanner stinks, or your monitor needs calibrating, maybe. And I've had a lot of trouble with compression, i.e.: What looks great done up and packaged on my machine at 200ppi and 2400X3600 just loses something many times when displayed. I envy those people who can make their landscapes look really smooth while displaying a 500X700 pixel image. This is especially true, it seems, when displayed as a thumbnail on the critique page, or as the main picture on the gallery page. But someday I'll learn to fix that, maybe. Now what's boring to you may not be boring to me (like all the point and shoot pictures of out-of-focus kids you don't know), so that's kinda subjective. But I can take a punch. Cheers.

[afs760bf]

OK, I probably should retract #2, since most anyone leaving that comment on one of my photos would probably have a good point.

[oofoto]

I'd much rather have a comment on the chin than a rating on the chin. It usually staggers me that people don't point out the obvious.

In fact when I leave constructive critisism I usually end up rating higher than I want to - of course I could rate anonymously but I don't.. and we all know the ratings are exposed once in a while to keep things interesting..

[dguindon]

I think Laurie Meehan-Elmer first comment is spot on to what PN should be about. Critques really do work from the Right people.

[dave_c5]

I'm with Don on Lauries comment and want to leave some of Barry Fs comments on a lot of stuff I've seen on photo.net........Anyways, You really need to look at a persons portfolio to see where their abilities are at to really be constructive.

 

On the flip side, whenever someone leaves a comment on one of my photos that's good, bad or indifferent, (I could care less as long as it's constructive) I look at their portfolio to see where they are coming from.

 

To me, a blunt constructive comment on a photo I've taken is better than someone telling me "5/5 Pretty good!" Just tell me like it is and what I might have done or could do better. Comments or crappy ratings aren't going to affect my paycheck or birthday.

 

Honestly, the only reason I keep coming back to photo.net is because of people like you all, people who actually care.

 

Great subject Ben! Thanks and keep it up everyone.

 

Dave

[jhenry]

A good and difficult question here Ben! and an interesting discussion too! <p>I will labour the obvious saying that it is very personal :o( <br>I mean, when I receive a critic I tend to visit the images <b>&/or </b>posts of the person who gave it to evaluate its relative value. <p>Also, I find it difficult to (be)critic(ized) looking at a single pic; a global view on the portfolio should be a pre-requisite (that's why I find it quite difficult and frustrating to critic/rate using Rate Recent).<br> I prefer to receive a 'human' than a 'technical' critic: what this image/the design, the composition and the place of things/people in the image evoke or suggest to the viewer? make his/her imagination working and interrogate his/her feelings and express it.

[pnital]

I came a bit late, but Ben it is a good complicated question, as tastes ,understanding and knowledge have a huge varaiety.

 

First I will say, that I respect each and every one that will take the time to comment on my work. and politeness dictates me to thank each of them, be it a good and experienced photographer or a beginer, or a medium one, and answer longer if there is a need for that. I prefer comments without rating than rating without comments, and thats why I find RR the cause of lowered commenting in general.

 

I prefer comments that are realy helpful in telling me what is good or if it lacks something that can be corrected.I learned a lot from that kind of help, and I appreciate photographers that are ready to transfer knowledge. (like you Ben)

 

Laurie, your list contains names, good photographers (as you are your self,) but most of them are commenting each other and rarely if ever( excluding Salvator and Jeremy..as far as I observed) answering or helping other photographers in need.

When I comment, I nearly never rate without writing my impression of a given image, my emotional feeling and technical aspects if I know how to enhance the photo.. I have on my list not only good and experienced photographers, but beginners as well and people that I think I can be of help.

 

Each one of us here have to remember that there are better one than we or less knowledgeable, and as much as time permits,to be helpful to a larger circle. Pnina

[ned1]

I had a great critique the other day. It was for a fashion shot and the critiquer went over all the mistakes I was making with the model's pose (something I'm not that strong on), and made suggestions as to how to avoid the problems in the future. He then went through a list of what should be in your kit when working with models, including some sensible things I had never thought of. It's a critique that will make me better prepared for similar shoots.