Is there hope left for camera stores?

[david_henderson]

This week I read of the demise of Vic Odden's camera shop in

London. Now I'd never been there myself, but they were a 'name' and

several photographers I know had been happy to buy there. Just the

latest in a line, I guess. But the owner said that part of the

problem was people visiting the store for advice and then buying

elsewhere, particularly online.

 

And I suppose this got me thinking about what the role of camera

stores needs to be if they are to survive the threat of online or

telephone -based dealers with much cheaper premises and staffing

costs and, most often, lower prices and better stockholding. But

the problem I see is this. I think I can get better, more objective

and infinitely more detailed advice on what to buy from sites like

Photo.net and online review sites, not to mention the odd magazine,

than I'm ever going to get from a camera shop. I know there will be

exceptions but my expectations of both the availability and quality

of advice in retailers are very low, and I've long ago stopped

thinking that I'll come across anyone there who can help me at all.

This is probably coincident with when I stopped buying from UK

retailers and started buying everything online/on the

phone/overseas/on eBay.

 

The article gave me the impression that retailers resent having

their time wasted by people that buy elsewhere, but I think this

misunderstands the problem. I see it as a much bigger issue if

potential customers *stop* thinking of the retailer as a useful

source of advice, as I have. So the policy of staffing stores with

people who don't know anything is not going to help them compete

 

I just can't see a way that any of these retailers are going to

survive if all they can do is shift boxes more expensively than

their non-store competitors. Or is there anything they can do to

enjoy more optimistic prospects?

[unohuu]

The camera stores can provide a hands-onm experience combined with the knowledge of the dealer and information specialization. They can also provide local knowledge about photography related news, events, classes, workshops, etc. I make it a point to purchase items from my local camera shop - National Camera Exchange. I also use them to purchase chemicals for darkroom work, containers and smaller quantities of film. But I am fortunate as I live close to two great franchises. My second choice is Midwest Photo. One is closer to work; the other closer to home.

[les]

IMHO their days are (sadly) numbered...Just recently two camera stores here in Sydney South-West have been closed. I can handle 15-20% price difference, but no more than that. For instance: Canon 1V HS was available here at A$4300, and it was the lowest price I could get. From B@H it was A$3000, with postage and taxes, delivered to my front door. I asked the guy in the shop why does not he order the stuff from B@H, put $500 on the top and sell it to me ? I would still pay A$800 less, he would make A$500 just for spending 5 minutes on the computer and everyone would be happy. He could not answer my question...

[steve_levine]

Yes, but they are more just walk in labs now days. The Fuji Froniter has saved them from extinction.

[george_bourke]

My favorite camera store closed some years back. What made them my favorite was:

1) they rented equipment

2) they rented studio space and equipment

3) they had an excellent stock of used equipment w/fast turnover

4) their new stock included cameras, accessories, backdrops, studio lighting, darkroom

5) they had on-site processing

6) they had a large photo museum

7) they were also heavily into digital imaging very early on

8) refrigerated film and paper

 

and unfortunately they didn't survive. I know of one other similar store...unfortunately, I now live far, far from it.

 

I don't think such stores will survive as everyone seems to buy based on price.

[jay ott]

Yes, there are things that they can do to enjoy more opitimistic prosepcts.<p>

 

1. Train the high school student staff thoroughly.<p>

2. Stop the bait and switch, rain check, we'll order it routine.<p>

3. Move to a locality that has a lower sales tax--I'd rather pay shipping than have to pay tax to the government.<p>

4. Stop trying to sell substitutes just because the retailer hasn't been given credit to stock a manufacturer's full product line. We want to see the full product line.<p>

5. Match or come close to internet prices.<p>

6. The in-store rebate that takes 10-12 weeks is an insult to people's intelligence. If you can send it in 10-12 weeks, then you should be able to offer instant rebates.<p>

7. Get rid of high-pressure commisioned sales.

[j_autey]

I'd add one more thing to Jay's list,

Price competitively.

The only Professional Camera Store in my parts charge between 10 and 15 percent more than do the national stores, like B&H (I know B&H isn't a national store, but there web store is global). I'd liked to support it, but I work on a budget and try to make every penny squeal.

[j_autey]

Sorry, I should have said

I agree with Jay's list and especially about princing bit.

[RaymondC]

Of course there will still be stores around.

I could buy new clothing like suits off ebay, I know my size, I can check the picture of fabric color/texture and order it .. but many pple still prefer to buy in person even if its more expensive.

 

Many pple like to ask the dealer about it, try diff things out in person, window shop, do their pictures prints in person and talk to them how they want it to look like. I prob won't send my wedding photos to the other side of country just to do them. Many pple don't ask pple for opinions on photography forums and then blindly order the goods at a trusted store.

 

For hobbyist or many pro's mail order may be method for many or most it isn't.

 

Its also human that we like to go out and see and try before we hand over the money and we know we are certain about our decision. Plus retail therapy is a good thing to us human beings .....

 

We like to eat out not that its necessarily good food but its a social event just for the sake of getting out. Certainly we can buy from the supermarket and cook at home everytime even if it is better if one is a super chef by hobby (I have a hobby in cuisine but still like to eat out if the food isn't that good).

 

These stores may not wack up big profits as some mail companies do .. but they should do ok to survive.

[john falkenstine]

Camera stores in Tucson have been dying off since the mid-eighties. Currently I only know of THREE, and one of those sells mostly used equipment. To survive, camera stores must develop business models that reflect the economic environment in which they have to operate, like any other business. The digital explosion has been going on for some time now, so their time for "adjustment" is essentially just about over.

[awahlster]

My favorite camera stores closed about 20 years before the advent of digital. Small business close all the time. It happens. How many mom and pop non chain store little grocieries do you see any more? Or sevice stations the kind with a lube bay working on locals cars and changing oil? Things change

[manuel_franz]

I thought about your questions and reflected on personal reasons for going to an actual

camera store and for reasons that lead me to purchase online. For many years, I lived in

NYC and my store of choice was (you guesses it) B&H. Several things always made me

come back:

 

1.) They had just about anything in stock - regardless of what it was.

 

2.) I could physically inspect, compare, and handle items.

 

3.) Their prices were usually very competitive - despite added sales tax.

 

4.) If I wanted to have an item right away, I could get it there within 30 minutes.

 

 

However, I did not purchase all items at B&H. Specifically, I bought online when:

 

1.) Other stores had lower prices.

 

2.) The cost of delivery was far less than that of the sales tax.

 

3.) I didn't need the item right away.

 

4.) I was to lazy to hop on the subway and deal with people in the store.

 

 

This leads me to think that one of the most important aspects of a store purchase is

availability of items. Like many people, I do my research at home and have a pretty good

idea of what I want - sales person advice is pretty much irrelavant to me. However, once I

have narrowed my needs down to a certain number of items (say a Digital P&S), I want to

be able to compare them side-by-side and see how they feel and how the fit me. Going to

the little corner store doesn't do it for me simply based on this need.

[kelly_flanigan1]

In many US states; the sales tax saving gets lost when you get audited; and half to pay the back sales taxes; penalitys; and then interest on top of both. If you commit tax evasion; you might not want to publically mention that you cheat the tax man. <a href="http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/american_originals/capone.html"<i>

"The income tax law is a lot of bunk. The government can't

collect legal taxes from illegal money."

--Attributed to Al Capone </i></a><BR><BR>In many areas; all ones photo gear must be taxed; including film; whether you buy it in state; or out of state; everything not delivered to the customer. <BR><BR>What if your local camera store lets the state tax commision know about you not paying state sales taxes?

[kelly_flanigan1]

have to *

[david_m]

The rent on a store is huge, if you have ever tried to rent a store you will know. One in a good location must do an enormous amount of business just to break even. There is no way a store employing people can ever compete with an online business except to provide services that are impossible online. Many of the great camera stores in New York City went out of business in the 1980's. I remember seeing the close-out announcements on the back pages of the New York Times. The ones that still thrive have moved to encompass digital and computers and electronics. (B&H, Adorama). They are no longer really 'camera stores'. The others are pale shadows of what they used to be (Cambridge Camera, 47th St Photo, Willoughbys, Olden) and are on the verge of extinction.

[h._p.]

The real problem is that the mail order people can undercut the stores, as has been mentioned above, by a huge margin.

 

Personally, I have nothing but utter contempt for people who go to a shop, spend half an hour looking at an item and then go home and buy the same item mail order. Dress it up any way you like but such a person is a thief. They've stolen the shop's time and resources. It isn't illegal but it's morally corrupt.

 

The real fix is to require mail order shops to take back goods, at their own expense, up to seven days after delivery, thus levelling the playing field. The EU has floated such an idea and it may become law in Europe, thus ensuring that bricks and mortar shops are able to deal on an equal basis with mail order.

 

I'm not against mail order, I use it often myself, but I try to play fair with everyone and think we should all do so.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Harvey; here in the rebel states :) a typical gambit is a person gets exited about a new lens. They look at it locally; buy it on a Friday or Saturday with a credit card; use it over the weekend. They clean it all up Monday morning; and return it to the small store. "and dont want it; it was a birthday gift for uncle duffus; and he already owns one". Then they buy the same lens mail order or via the internet; and get a cheaper price; and pay no STATE sales tax; which might be 0 to 9 percent; maybe typically 6 or 7.

[bill_thorlin]

Many points have been covered as to costs, on-line competition etc.etc. but I would make some general comments about such camera stores. I have used/visited Vic Oddens and not all of the following points are applicable to them but some are.

 

1. They are often small, cramped and "dowdy" - not what one would call inviting.

 

2.They often have a forbidding atmosphere and that goes for the staff as well - again not very welcoming.

 

3. They seem to want to cater predominantly for the more expert photographer and I have witnessed a superior attitude taken with the less experienced visitor.In the early days I myself experienced this and it took some time to find one that was prepared to listen and guide rather than pontificate.

 

4. They trade heavily on their "established name" but this can be a burden as well as a benefit in the way that a take it or leave it attitude is evident.

 

5. Many such stores seem to have to have atrophied and are not prepared to update/modernise/revamp their approach and appearance.

 

I am not of course saying that they all display all of the above charateristics but I suspect that many that have gone did have these problems. It seems to me that if you find a good one you should support it if you can - it is an endangered species !

[bob_gentile]

Hmmm. This seems like as good a place as any to set up this here ol' soapbox and... Ha!

 

<p>It sounds like what I'm hearing is... there's not much they (the local retail stores) <strong><em>can</em></strong>

do to stay in business, cuz <em>w</em>e (the customers) aren't willing to pay for the

things we want from them. We aren't willing to pay their rent, the interest on their

inventory, or the increased labor costs that come with educated, informed employees. We

want them to be modern and up-to-date but we aren't willing to pay for the renovations. We

want the retailers to pay for them. But they can no longer afford it, because we're buying

from internet mechants who have lower operating costs, ergo, lower prices. We want to have

our cake and eat it too.  "We have met the enemy and he is us."Pogo </p>

 

<p>B&H seems to have a successful business paradigm, but they have "economies of

scale" that most other retailers can't match. Throw in Adorama, Calumet, and a few

more... and that's all there's room for. The market is saturated.</p>

 

<p>I think this is the internet's effect on the evolution of retail business. It's

evolving from the small local stores on Main Street to... the malls... to the superstores

to... who knows! It's still evolving. Will it be the Amazon model? Or the eBay model? Or

will we one day buy everything direct from the manufacturer? Will manufacturers start

auctioning their products instead of selling them at a fixed price? Only time will tell.

Meanwhile, enacting protectionist laws to "save the dinosaurs" will only delay

their inevitable extinctionand force us all to <em>pay</em> for that delay.

[anand_raghavan1]

Bob has summed it up perfectly. But I appreciate a local store very much. Sometimes it is impossible to judge what you want online. For instance, I was trying to buy a small camera bag. In most cases, I couldn't visualize the item from online descriptions and photos. A lot of headache can be saved if one can personally inspect what one wants to buy. Sometimes, I might even buy a piece of equipment with inferior specs only on the basis that it handles better. These things are like a shot in the dark with an online store.

 

I have felt frustrated by the unavailability of things locally. I feel I should support local shops that have salespersons with a good attitude. I am willing to pay a little more for this. I would pay upto 15% more, but not beyond that. At that point it becomes difficult to ignore the alternative, even if it involves risk. I mean having a local store is a means to an end, not an end in itself (except when you just want to wander around it and window shop). These stores must make every effort to bridge the price gap and find an optimum where local people are prepared to absorb the difference. I am sure people will eventually realize that if they keep doint the 'inspect and buy elsewhere' routine, they will have nowhere to go and inspect soon enough.

[john falkenstine]

Excellent point Harvey; I make SURE that when I visit my local camera store, that I make a transaction FIRST. AFTER that I will look at a camera or something.

[phyrpowr]

I'm willing to pay local store "premium" prices, but only up to a point.

 

For a $300 @ B&H lens, I'll pay around $330-$350 here, for the ability to walk back in a few days and get a refund/exchange if it's not up to par.

 

For a $1000 @ B&H lens, I'm not willing to pay $1300-1500: I'll deal with mail order return, as bad as it is

 

BTW, I'd do this with any other product as well, and so will the people who own the local camera stores. In any business, you're putting your product out for inspection, and if someone doesn't want to buy, tough, that's just how it works, and I'm not "stealing" anything from them by not buying

[emaxxman]

There are two camera stores in my local area that I tried to develop a relationship with and support. I gave up on them for honest and/or knowledgeable answers and service. Here's some examples:

 

1. The "X" brand multi-coated filter they were selling (can't remember the brand) was better made by Hoya but better than Hoya. Why? Because they have the multicoating in between two pieces of glass. The glass on the outside protects the multicoating...Hoya has it on the outside.

 

2. "Sure we can order you the Hoya filters for the same price as B&H." 2 weeks later...have my filters come in yet. No, not yet. There's a delay with the warehouse distributor. 2 weeks later...have my filters come in yet. "Actually, we haven't placed the order yet because we need to get an order of at least $200 together before we can order at the price quoted." Uh...so what is it, a delay or not? Goodbye!!!

 

3. The Nikon D2H (this store really pushes Nikon gear...the owner's son is a Nikon salesman.) has a sensor that is 1.3x times bigger than the EOS1D. I said, "Uh...that's the focal length magnifier, not the sensor size. It wouldn't make sense to make a sensor that big because there weren't any lenses that could make use of it."

Oh, it's right here in the new sales catalogue...I know it's right here, uh...wait a minute, let me take care of this customer first. Dude never comes back.

 

If the local stores give you this type of bullcrap runaround and service and hire idiots like this, then they deserve to be run out of business. They're the equivalent of a garage that makes repairs that don't need to be made or rip off grandmothers.

 

The market is changing...we are an Internet-based, global market. Store owners need to realize that they have to give people a reason to pay more...if it's not with their higher level of service, then they may as well start selling used cars.

 

I do have a relationship with 2 other photo stores. I tell them flat out what I'm looking for and ask them if they can match B&H's price. If they can't come close, then I guy it from B&H. If they come within a reasonable margin, I buy it from them. I know they'll deliver what they promise and I let them know what they're up against. We both come out happy.

[john falkenstine]

The point about pricing is well made. Smaller camera stores of course cannot have the economies of scale that larger stores enjoy (or exploit) But I believe for smaller stores, that attempting to generate an income purely from equipment sales (new equipment) hasn't been very smart for a long time. Remember, you're dealing with a clientiele that has changed quite a bit over the last few years, so if you're on the "old" business model, you're servicing a rapidly declining market..not very smart. Remember all of the foreign car repair shops of the sixties, seventies and eighties? Now they are few in number. They were servicing a market which consisted mostly of high maintenance, unreliable vehicles, which needed visits to the shop as often as every 3rd month just to keep running. (For some vehicles, such a older Jaguars, Fiats and Alfa Romeos, the interval was often every other week) As manufacturerers improved their product, and changed THEIR business model, the reliability improvements eliminated the need for most of the repair shops. I see most camera stores evolving to something were camera products might be PART of their lineup, but not the sole activity anymore...

[randall ellis]

I prefer to support the local shops as much as I can, but being a film photographer, my needs hold their attention less and less each day. When I last spoke with them, the shop where I buy film told me that they would carry film until it died, which shouldn't be too much longer... I understand that they need to make money and I have no problem with that, but at some point, the profits generated from supporting film shooters will no longer be large enough to make economic sense and they will cut their stock to the point that it drives the remaining film users to online shopping. In this area, I am afraid that this may already have happened.

 

As far as gear goes, I rarely buy equipment. The most recent purchase of gear over $25 (~filter cost) that I made was two years ago, but it was from a local shop. Now days, almost all of the gear my local shops carry is digital, and only some of the lenses would work on my film bodies. Besides, more gear is not going to help me make better images. My money goes for film and chemistry, neither of which is carried locally in any variety these days. I will continue to support them as much as I can, but I have become a niche customer and in today?s world, we don't count for much in the big picture of economics.

 

I expect the local shops to either close down or adapt to the more prevalent digital photography world of selling service (prints) and the latest flashy gear.

 

I am sad to see the personal service of the local shop go away, but the old shops are too anachronistic in today?s world to survive without adapting...

 

- Randy