Bit the bullet, now wish me luck!

[railhead]

Well, I just placed an order for the following:

<ul>

<li>Kodak Flexicolor Bleach III, 1 Gallon.

<li>Kodak Flexicolor Developer, 1 Gallon.

<li>Kodak C41 Stabilizer/Replenisher, 5 liter.

<li>Kodak Flexicolor Fixer/Replenisher, 5 Gallons.

</ul>

That meant I had to get the following, too:

<ul>

<li>Jobo CPE-2 Plus Processor Starter Kit For Film and Prints

<li>Jobo Lift for CPE-2 Plus Processor

</ul>

And <i>that</i> means I better be able to figure out this C-41 process since I just spent

a boat-load of money on the hard (and liquid) ware! Anyone know if they make a "C-41

Film Processing For Dummies" book?

[eric friedemann]

I don't believe in luck. So God bless.

 

 

It simply passes understanding why anyone would want to hand-develop C-41 film when you can't swing a dead cat around most metropolitan areas without hitting a minilab with a C-41 machine. Hand-developing color film is just so removed from the creative process, you might as well be making your own aluminum foil.

 

 

My store has a C-41 machine that flawlessly develops film dry-to-dry in about 15 minutes for two bucks a roll. I get negatives that look like glass with no dust or spooge. The machine does as good a job as I could ever possibly do by hand, and the machine is waaaaaaaay less expensive.

[railhead]

I'll tell you why:

 

1. The only place that can develop 120 without mailing it off for over a week is 15 miles away

and only open from 9:30am-5:00pm M-F.

 

2. Because I want to. Simple as that. End of story. Period.

 

Thanks for playing.

[eric friedemann]

And Maury, I was looking through your images. You really have a creative eye. Don't get too bogged-down in the knucklehead mechanic stuff.

[jordan_f1]

Maury,

 

Sounds like fun to me... do you have any experience with b&w processing? Both processes seem fairly similar - the fundamentals anyway. Your last reason for doing this is a good enough one. It's fun to do things yourself. After all, why do people fix up old cars when they could have a mechanic do it for them?

 

Good luck!

 

Jordan

[roger_hicks1]

Dear Eric,

 

A 15 minute lab is unlikely to use a water wash. Instead, they will 'stabilize'. This DOES have implications for longevity.

 

This, as well as the distance to the nearest good labs (15 miles to Thouars), is why I do C41. And E6 (100 km/62 miles to Tours).

 

So good luck, Maury! And as we say in France, Bonne Courage!

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

[eric friedemann]

Roger, to be honest, I'd FedEx color film to a lab and back rather than hand-develop it. But, different strokes ...

 

 

I'm not sure what implications stabilization has. I'm currently scanning machine-processed color negatives that are going on 25 years old and show no signs of deterioration. While I'll probably never need my color negatives again once I scan them, I'm 43 and I certainly don't need my negatives to outlast me.<div></div>

[walterh]

Eric, could you PLEASE go and ask the folks in this lab if they might want to move to our neighborhood here in Germany? I do process my own C41 films and if I would get good quality I would not do it myself. I save about 1 US$ per film and would be pleased to donate the same amount for charity if I can just drop the film off and get done with it in one hour. In case these people do not want to move give them a good hug and keep them happy.

 

Yes I could mail my films to an pro lab but the extra cost and extra time is not an option for me. So home developmenmt of C41 is the option for the last 10% of my shooting not digital.

 

Cheers

Walter

[mendel_leisk]

Does anyone know how those minilabs get the negatives *dead* flat? Likely in the mechanized drying process? That is a big plus if you're scanning.

[dave_cheng1]

Costco, Walgreen, Target, Longs and Walmart are all available in my neighborhood. Prolabs including Calyspo are all within easy reach. Yet I have hand done C-41 and E-6 at home for as long as I have owned my house. It's not about cost, convenience, distance, quality, nor speed.

It's all about a hobby pursuing satisfaction of every bit of the process to create an image on a print. Well, there was one period of time I stopped doing it due to lack of quality equipments and missing Hobby Packs from Koda. Played with digital camera for a year then tossed it. Picked up a film scanner and my processing of films came back to me in an ever larger scale. I then bought a Jobo ATL-2300. It's fun. I do stay away from printing the chemical way though. I have half a dozzen inkjet printers to do the job instead. Go for it Maury. Don't be disturbed by those who have no idea how much weight it is in processing your own film as a part of your photography hobby.

[25asa]

Most machines that do 35mm can also put 120 through it. All the lab needs is the large film container to hold 120. Our lab has one and we don't even do 120.

[pics]

Sounds great so go for it! I'd love to start working in color but the cost of JOBO's, color heads, chemistry and time aren't in the plans right now. I too get a great deal of satisfaction using my own 2 hands to arrive at a print from start to finish. I do my own E-6 but the satisfaction isn't there since Ilfochrome is currently impossible for me and getting prints back from the lab doesn't have the same feel as pulling one from the fixer.

[eric friedemann]

Walter, a blessing and curse of living in America is having a minimall on every third corner with a drugstore or a minilab. The trick is finding one that runs a clean C-41 machine.

 

 

Mendel, the trick is drying the negatives evenly without overdrying. When C-41 machines are kept in proper working order, you get clean negs that lay nice and flat.

[railhead]

Thanks for all the kind words and encouragement! I liken the home C-41ers to people that

don't understand why you'd want to walk 18 holes when you can ride in a cart.

 

And yes, I do my own B&W and I absolutely love it.

 

Doing my own color is just an extension of the hobby, plain and simple. I also make my

own golf clubs, I build guitars, etc. It's just another facet of the hobby, and just because

someone else already does it or because they're "pros," that doesn't mean I can't aspire to

do the same at 11:30pm when all the stores are closed.

[terence_spross1]

The next step, that some don't understand, is mixing the developer from raw chemicals, that can extend your creativity also, just as different developers are used in the B&W procoess. I've just 'bit the bullet' ordering lots of chemicals.

 

Maury, you shouldn't need a C41 book... lots of references on the web are here for the looking. I don't believe in luck either.

[railhead]

My thing with the book is more regarding replenishing and stuff. I've asked about it

several times, but no one ever wants to answer. =(

 

I understand that I'll get my chems and mix gallons like I do with B&W. With B&W, I either

1-shot or use Diafine, so I'm either dumping the chems or reusing them. I understand you

can do the same thing with C-41, but since chems are more expensive, 1-shot is a waste

if you process several rolls per week -- and you can't simply dump the C-41 chems back

into their original gallons without using some sort of "replenisher" chem.

 

How you do that, what you do -- exactly -- is what I don't understand. Say I use 600ml of

all C-41 chems, processing 35mm or 120. Now I'm done and I've recovered my 600ml of

each chem back into their 600ml bottles.

 

Now what? I *think* you pour them back into the "source gallons," then pour off a certain

amount based on something, then add a certain amount of replenisher to the "source

gallon" to get the chems back up to spec.

 

Which C-41 chems do you do this with? What are the rates? How do you determine how

much to use? So on and so forth...

[john_shriver]

Treat the developer as single shot. The other chemicals can be reused without replenishment. Bleach needs aeration.

 

Replenishment is adding the "right" amount of replenisher after you process each roll, to keep the activity of the developer stable.

 

BUT. You have to start with a different developer product (starter) if you plan to replenish. Then you have to buy the developer replenisher, which is another product. Both have shelf-life issues when mixed to working strength. Then, while Kodak gives starting point estimates as to how much replenisher to add for each 80 square inches of film processed, that's only an estimate. To determine the right replenishment rate for any C-41 line, you need to process control strips, and read them with a densitometer. Even then, if you process a lot of overexposed or underexposed film, that will throw off your replenishment.

 

The reality is that you're quite unlikely to process enough C-41 film at home to make replenishment pay. Also, it will be very hard to get the consistency of results that you want when replenishing.

[railhead]

So the bleach, stabilizer/replenisher, and fixer/replenisher can be reused? That's nice, since

the Bleach is what's so dadgum expensive.

 

Why are the other chems named replenisher if they don't have to be replenished or whatever?

[eric friedemann]

"The next step, that some don't understand, is mixing the developer from raw chemicals, that can extend your creativity also, just as different developers are used in the B&W procoess."

 

 

It doesn't work that way. With B&W film developing, different developers can be used to fine-tune negatives for different needs and effects.

 

 

C-41 development is done to one standard established by Kodak, the inventor of the process. You either develop C-41 film to that standard or you don't. This is why C-41 developing is best done in a machine where test strips can be run daily to acheive an optimally-developed roll of film.

 

 

Also, C-41 developing is best done in replinished chemistry, called "seasoned" chemistry- not in freshly mixed chemistry. Unless you develop C-41 film day-in and day-out and replinish your chemistry, your hand-developed film will not be as close to optimal development as if the film were developed in a well-maintained C-41 machine.

[dave_cheng1]

I doubt that seasoned soup does better. Replenishing is like keeping a vehicle from going off road. Monitoring and correction is done only once or twice a day. You can expect the soup to go off road from time to time. Jobo machine is not easily replenished but its E-6 one shot process is known to produce more vibrant colors than by seasoned soup from prolabs. The challenge in using Jobo is in chemical management. Unless you can use up a whole package of chemical fairly quickly the process quality declines toward the last few runs using the last few drops of the soup.

[walterh]

"The next step, that some don't understand, is mixing the developer from raw chemicals, that can extend your creativity also, just as different developers are used in the B&W procoess."

 

Also keep in mind that in BW (silver film) there is ONE light sensitive compound. In C41 there are at least 3. It gets even more complex because you can not develop one layer without developing the other. So actually all you can do is push or pull all three layers. You CAN have complete control. You can take three BW images with color (filter) separation and develop these three BW separately. That gives you control for exact color in density and gamma when you recombine the colors. I did this a long time ago and it took about one weeekend in the darkroom to get a large print. Not practical for moving objects I would say. Give it a try^^. Now you have photoshop to do it and I bet you will prefer that.

[discpad]

Maury, I need to write up a web page on replenishing techniques for B&W, C-41 and E-6 processing.

 

Also, see the warning titled "C41 fixer used for B&W film or paper" Ron posted last night at:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00G8MT

 

 

...But then, from a workflow (fluid flow) standpoint, read how you need four separate conditions to be met to have this problem to begin with.

 

 

Primarily, if you use replenished fixer like me, use two fixing stages with the second, fresh fixer used to replenish the first fixer.

 

 

I have to drive 80 miles up to B&H, so I gotta run!

[micah_mayo]

Ya know Maury..

 

You've been developing black and white for less than one month and you already want to do color? I think that's not quite biting the bullet, but jumping the gun. I would spend at least a year exploring the possibilities with black and white, which is much more of a "free" process(i.e. you can do more), much less expensive, and less fickle and frustrating than C41... I mean do it.. but I only see frustration in your future.. b/c by your post history it seems like you are having a hard time with black and white... well expect those problems _plus_ all of the headaches that come with color.

[railhead]

Thus the challenge. Man, some of you guys must lead boring lives!

[eric friedemann]

And hand-developing film that was designed to be processed by a mindless machine alleviates boredom? Again, different strokes ...