Photography ban on PATH, MTA?

[cenelsonfoto]

Schub, yer still off-base. I will e-mail since it appears you won't take it that route.

[kymtman]

Our "law enforcers" all belong to a unwritten club, they can go anywhere in the US and do almost anything they want and won't be bothered. It is the brotherhood that encludes firefighters also. I challenged a state boy for giving me a speeding ticket by following me a couple of miles to check my speed. The judge ruled he had no more right to exceed the speed than I did without classifying his vehicle as an emergency vehicle by lights or sound. I get a kick out of the guys on the volinteer fire dept., as they strap a radio on their hip and strut like a turkey gobbler in heat. Our servants are soon to forget who funds their payday.

I think it is time all challenge that which is done an injustice. If we don't stand for nothing, then anything will do!

All have a right to photography in a public place. I carry my bill of photographic rights with me in my camera bag. It is my civil rights and no ordinance can supercede a civil right other than marshall law.

[bill_thorlin]

Just a few thoughts.

 

Democracy is a feeble,fragile and flawed thing - but it is the best we have got.

 

Freedom isn't free, it comes at a price - sometimes a heavy price.

 

Many law-makers will use any excuse to bring in more laws to restrict the individual. Why ? because it makes it easier for them to "govern". Fear is a useful tool for them because it makes it easier to pass the laws they want. How many bad laws have been passed after such sad events as we have recently seen ? Far, far too many. Some are deliberate and some are "knee-jerk" and be very wary when there is a consensus of all the political parties. In the UK it is said that when they all agree we get bad law and I suspect that applies nearly everywhere.

 

The law-enforcers take their lead from the law-makers and if they see that the general shift is towards more repression they will become more heavy handed and try and push the boundaries even further. After all just like the law-makers it makes their life easier.This is why the question had to be asked in the first place.

[roger krueger]

The less real ability to affect public safety the bigger the chip on the shoulder.

 

I've had a number of encounters with San Diego city police, and have never had them be

anything other than business-like. Ask what I'm doing, maybe check I.D., roll their eyes

when I start talking about art, and go on their way.

 

I've also had a number of rent-a-cop encounters. Only one failed to be a complete jerk,

lying about the law, threatening that which was not in their power, etc. Remember, rent-a-

cops make less than half what a real cop makes. If they had what it takes to be a real cop,

they'd be a real cop.

 

Haven't had any encounters with transit cops (Transit? On the west coast? Ha, ha, ha!) but

it sure seems like they're much closer to rent-a-cops in the need to prove their authority,

even if they do have real badges.

 

How does the entire country fail to notice that 9/11 was our Reichstag fire? (Maybe

because nobody remembers what the Reichstag fire was or how crucial it was in all that

happened afterwards)

[larrydressler]

The Police now know me in my town and leave me alone all it took was a trip to the mayors office. Yes it sucks I wonder if the next step will be a Camera tax at National Parks ... In Egypt they charge extra for cameras at any tourist sight.

Larry

[mfophotos]

Here is a HELPFUL item, and the one I was looking for yesterday, and just forgot what it

was called: http://www.photopermit.org/

[larrydressler]

Thanks Mark I saved their page and Will use them as needed. Glad to see I have help I Work Security for the Army and I know that some of the regulations are aginst Federal law but the stock answer is "National Security" Sometimes I hate my job but it pays twice the local wage. Yet at the same time I do undersatand after serving many years and retired from a Milatary branch.

[michael schub]

Of course the tried and true method of dealing with this is to gather as many photographers as possible (thousands would be best) and start photographing a guarded rail facility and invite arrest. The railroad police are a particularly stupid bunch so I'm certain you can provoke a suitable (for your purposes) response. Everyone insists on a trial and everyone refuses to pay his or her fine and insists on clogging the local jail and, of course, everyone sues. So long as you don't break any other law like interfering with the police or resisting arrest you will make your point, get the word out in the press and cost the community a lot of money.

 

Be prepared to find, particularly in the NYC area, that public fear and outrage at 9/11 (and now the London and Madrid bombings) outweighs any interest in the civil rights issues bothering you. With only a handful of protesters and in the absence of public opinion be prepared for ridicule and the wrath of prosecutors and judges - high principle will not deter them from being very vindictive. The DC authorities had no problem tossing the recently jailed NY Times reporter in a cell where she is sleeping on a concrete floor. Riker?s Island offers the City of New York exquisite opportunities for extracurricular harassment; get into the wrong cellblock and you?ll think you have traveled back to the 18th century.

 

It is easy to talk the talk but many aren't so good at walking the walk. Anyone considering civil disobedience should have a realistic view of all possible outcomes to avoid ugly surprises or a craven retreat from principle.

[cenelsonfoto]

Schub - With one such as you, so obviously well-versed in the law and willing to sue for fun and profit, able to help us along, it shouldn't be a problem, yes? You know the game, you know what buttons to push, yes? yes?

<p>

So do something to help. Have you made enough money yet, acquired enough buffer and power, Mr. Schub, that one of your status might reach down and assist those "yearning to be free"? Or is this simply more snickering and "you silly person"-talk that only hinders. I've no doubt you mean well and wish for all of us to be free of the influence of bad laws/lawmakers/politicians et al, but I wait for you to act. Poo-pooing the notion is not helping. I know what a jail looks like, and I would be willing to go to one for a good cause. Refusing to risk jail for justice is akin to living in jail anyhoo, yes? One keeps us imprisoned behind bars, the other behind rhetoric and fear. Ja?

<p>

On the matter of corporations from earlier - I think a viewing of </i><a href="http://www.thecorporation.com/">The Corporation (Zeitgeist Films 2005)</a> is in order for us. Pay particularly close attention to Disc 2 with its many extended interviews.<p>

[kymtman]

Probably one of the best aproaches would be to plan carefully and notify the media of what you are about to do and have them meet you there to document the event. Inform the media of the laws that protect the photographer. I would first try to find if there is a ban or not. If there is then it would be most certainly unconstitutional, in my opinion. One might get his "lawyer" to assist him, but I don't think there are a handful of lawyers with the balls to upset the apple cart.

One thing I have learned in the last 64 years is this society is governed by those with money and power from money. This thread has set my spirit to the hyper mode. Thank God we still can express our opinion and ideals. How much longer will we be able to?

[cenelsonfoto]

Ron, I hear ya. But what do I know? I'm just a fat slob with a highschool diploma.

[michael schub]

Nelson - you know absolutely nothing about me and what you think you figured out is mostly wrong. The class warfare crap is also getting very old. Yes I do know something about the law and what I posted was to share some information on that subject; I was not advocating any position.

 

As you presume to know my position on the subject of this thread let me give it to you. The restrictions on photography are stupid and possibly illegal but so what.

 

I have suffered directly from the effect of 9/11: I've had to deal with the trauma my eldest daughter experienced watching people jump from the twin towers and hit the ground; I've had to deal with the effects on my grandson seeing the South Tower, just feet from his window, go down and being made homeless. When my family got back into their apartment we all had to deal with the smoke and smell of rotting and burning flesh and watching the fireman pull bodies and parts of bodies from the wreckage and carry them with honor to a fire truck. Getting beyond my family there is my neighbor whose husband's body was found in the courtyard - what a joy it must be for her to think of him jumping. I have a friend whose father was a battalion commander in the NYFD and lost many boys from her high school class. My 17-year had two fathers of kids in her summer camp bunk burn up on 9/11.

 

It's all right for you watching the grass grown in some small town in Arkansas to dream of storming the barricades. Maybe if your town had a subway system you would understand what I am talking about. I'm more interested in supporting the authorities even in their not too impressive attempts at security rather than making a fuss just because my hobby is being curtailed by their stupidly. Anyhow, it is my right as a free man to voluntarily relinquish some rights in support of what I perceive to be the greater good.

[michael schub]

In case anyone has forgotten this was the view from my daughter's apartment window<div></div>

[michael schub]

And another<div></div>

[mfophotos]

I think we can all agree that police harassment of photographers with legitimate aims is

uneccessary and an unwanted symbol of the times we live in. What we do about it

depends upon the situation and degree of obnoxiousness of the offender. Some of us are

certainly more likely to encounter it because of location, location, location. For those

directly touched by 9/11, I offer my sympathies. For those politicians using 9/11 as a

political axe, I offer nothing but my contempt.

[rmdavis]

Micheal,

 

What was done int he photos you posted was not done with cameras. It was done with airplanes. Maybe Nelson lives in Iowa, or Peoria, I don't know. I live in Jersey City, 5 blocks from the waterfront that faces the WTC. I also saw the whole thing go down. People on my street didn't come home from work that day. I was on the bucket line the day after. Sorry, I forgot to bring my camera, although plenty of other people didn't.

 

My question is, why do I even have to post that disclaimer? I don't know if your posts are trying to claim some special knowledge or status for you or your viewpoints; I'll assume the best and go with the assumption that they were made in the spirit of reinforcement of a point rather than as a status claim vs. Mr. Nelson.

 

But I do believe that 9/11 has been used to justify a lot of pointless and totally unrelated BS. Why, because it is emotional and inflamatory. That means its powerful, and can be used powerfully to ends that have NOTHING to do with terrorism and security. Like jacking the egos of cops and private security guards.

 

Photographing a lovely 19th century facade is not a security threat. It is not furtive. It is not suspicious. People should not be made to feel criminal or insecure because they are engaging in legitimate activities, and if police want to stop you for violating a law or regulation, the bare minimum we can demand from them is at least that they know what regulation they are referring to.

 

It's not the patriot act that I am pissed about. It's not the bag searches. It's the fact that questioning police or government activity is now off the table. With most cops, that's fine. But there are a small number of jackass cops who are going to use the fact that their actions are automatically unimpeachable to intimidate honest citizens. Why? Because they are the same people who beat kids up for milk money in grade school. Only know they are cloaked in the holy aura of "anti-terrorism."

[michael schub]

Ryan,

 

My personal view is that you have to pick your fights. You and I live in this area and know the grim determination around here to fight AQ and not to be intimidated out of enjoying the city. If still being horrified at 9/11 is pleading a special case I plead guilty.

 

Why would I want to play the asshole with a first responder around here? I don't expect to be pulled out of the wreckage by Nelson's local sheriff; so if he wants to make his mark as a freedom fighter in his small town go to it - I suspect that storming the barricades at home is just not something he would do. He seems determined to egg you on however.

 

The intelligence services have recovered reams of AQ photo surveillance; nobody wants to take the responsibility to decide that photographing the Hoboken Lackawanna Railroad Terminal isn't a security risk. Besides scouting photographs are also used to record movement of security forces etc around targets and to make measurements and the Path tunnel certainly is a juicy target. Seems clear to me that the authorities will always have an answer to your complaints about excessive security because someone can always think up a scenario to justify their actions. So long as there are sunset provisions to the Patriot Act I'll be patient albeit annoyed.

[cenelsonfoto]

Cowardly responses. If yer truly interested in why things like 9/11 happen, you can spend a day Googling the issue of US meddling in the ME affairs. (And elsewhere, Africa specifically.)

 

I'm done.

[roger krueger]

<i>But I do believe that 9/11 has been used to justify a lot of pointless and totally

unrelated BS. </i><br><br>

Yup. Remember when we all had to start showing I.D. to fly when the terrorists took out

TWA 800? Except it turned out not to be terrorists but a badly designed fuel pump?

<br><br>

<i>So long as there are sunset provisions to the Patriot Act I'll be patient albeit annoyed.

</i><br><br>

The sunsets are history. Now whadda ya gonna do?

<br><br>

(The House removed them Monday (7/25) from all but the wiretap and library provisions

that get 10 years. It seems unlikely the Senate or the Prez are going to put up a fight to

change much of that. The only thing I've heard is that the Senate wants to give the wiretap

and library provisions 4 years, not 10. )

[michael schub]

Nelson

I'm all for meddling in the ME. So I guess we'll have to wait until they get to downtown Fayetteville - give me a ring when that happens (if the phones still work - they didn't in Manhattan).

 

I'm Done

[michael schub]

Roger,

 

Unlimited extension of the Patriot Act would not make me happy. I had an office on the 103rd floor of the WTC when the bomb went off in 1993 and I had to get special ID just to get to my ofice so flight 800 was not the beginning - heck I remember air travel befroe security.

 

The first WTC bombing was before Iraq so I guess Nelson is talking about Israel. It's not too hard to figure out where he's coming from.

[cenelsonfoto]

Fairly hard for me to figure out where I'm coming from by your standards - where AM I coming from, Mr. Schub, and please be careful with your words.

 

As for Patriot Act, you better make some phone calls to stop the bastards. Chop chop!

[rmdavis]

Sorry Micheal, I guess I went off a bit half-cocked. I think I understand the point you were making. Living here myself, I am well aware of what risk we are at, and what the full gravity of the threat is. I also am aware that, for most people in the area, life goes on as it has too. I am just a bit hypersensitive about the behaviour of "9/11 families." I find it is often imperious and in bad taste. My bad.

 

I don't like it when people take my exlication of a situation as a justification, and castigate me for it, so I guess I shouldn't do that with you.

[michael schub]

Nelson,

 

As I wrote you by email, my saying you were criticizing American policy towards Israel was not a code word for accusing you of Anti-Semitism. I despise people who play that card to avoid a policy debate.

[michael schub]

Ryan,

 

I agree that the 9/11 family thing has gotten out of hand. I have much sympathy towards them and lay the blame squarely on the politicians and press who pander to them. The notion that the victim's families had to somehow approve the 9/11 Commission Report or the security suggestions contained therein was ridiculous.

 

I hope my waiving the bloody shirt didn't border on that sort of special pleading. I have been affected by ME terrorism in my extensive travels for decades - believe it or not there was a time when you just walked aboard an airplane with being searched. I feel very strongly that we should wage relentless war against terrorism.