Got ticket for taking photos.

[oleg k]

I got a ticket for taking street photos today.

 

http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~okikin/ticket-side1-lowres.jpg

 

WHAT HAPPENED:

 

So I'm around Times Square (NYC), on the corner 42nd / 7ave.

Extremely crowded place, people everywhere. I see a crowd of cops (5-

6 of them), around some black guy. So I come behind them and take a

photo. One cop sees it and goes

 

Cop: Go away, leave (angrily)

Me: Why?

Cop: Because I told you

Me: Why? I have the right to take photos in a public place

Cop: Give me your ID

(I give him my DL)

Cop: Stand over there (shows me the place next to the black guy)

Me: Why are you doing it? I didn't break any laws.

Cop: You are interfering with the arrest.

Me: I wasn't interfering with the arrest, I wan't even touching any

of you.

Cop: SHUT UP!

(i'm not saying anything, trying to take my cell phone out of the

pocket to call my friend and tell him that I will be late)

Two Cops at the same time: GET THE FUCKING CELL PHONE AWAY!

(i'm putting my phone away. Another cop comes close - Cop#2 )

Me: can I make a phone call?

Cop#2: You can call anybody you want, I don't care

(WTF? So I'm calling my friend, no problems. )

 

5 min later cop gives me ticket for something (not sure what).

 

Me: So did you give me the ticket for?

Cop: You interfered with the arrest. It's all written in the ticket,

submit it to court.

Me: I didn't interfere.

Cop: You were behind us, I felt uncomfortable.

Me: But there are hundreds of people behind you right now

(I point that there are people standing right next to him, waiting

for traffic light, walking right next to him, practically touching

him, while walking by)

Cop: It's all in the ticket. Now get away!

 

So i'm forced to leave.

 

I come back an hour later, the black guy IS NOT ARRESTED, still sells

something. I took photos of that, just in case.

 

 

Now the problem is, the ticket he gave me is very faint, itdoesn't

show the court name, I can't even see what the ticket is for

(something like "slowing pedestrian traffic").

 

So I would appreciate any legal advice, or if you had similar

experience.

[david_m]

I think you'll find that you did not get the ticket 'for taking photos'. No-one is required to carry ID so I would have said I did not have any. You will probably have to consult an attorney. I'd be inclined to sue the city. Unfortunately, unless you have witnesses, it will be difficult.

[oleg k]

James Kim, can you elaborate, please. I just don't see what exactly I did wrong.

[rdkirk]

If you don't see what you did wrong, consult a lawyer (find one that will give you a free first consultation) and take it to court. If the police officer doesn't show up for the trial (and many don't especially for something goofy), you win automatically. If the offense is interfering with an arrest, make sure your lawyer gets the records that indicate no arrest was actually made.

[Brad_]

Was that a misdemeanor? Man, if that happened to me, I'd be steamed not getting a

limousine ride to the precinct house in the back of a squad car.

 

Hope the photos were worth it.

[oleg k]

Allright, thanks guys. The whole thing doesn't make much sense. I can't even see what's written on the ticket. F**k.

[henricus]

Oleg,

<p>I am not questioning the veracity of your story, but in my experience there are always two sides to a story and then there is the truth. Go to court and present your side to the judge. A ticket is not a conviction, it is a summons to appear in court to answer the charges. Good luck.

[thomas_sullivan]

I played with it in Photoshop a bit (your pic of the ticket), and I'm pretty sure it says "Obstructing pedestrian traffic".

 

In my opinion, if the cop had told me to "go away, leave"....i would have obeyed his order......of course how far away was not specified now, was it? He initially said nothing about the camera....and I never would have brought it into the coversation. I'd bet money on it, if you had turned around and walked 10 feet away and started shooting again, he would have no problem with it. Personally, I'd tell you to leave if you were standing over my shoulder while I was doing something I had to pay attention to.

[oleg k]

I think you are right, it looks like "Obstructing pedestrian traffic". The thing is, I was standing a couple of feet away from them, and other people walked by, no problem. Thanks for the advice!

[jeff_conrad]

<blockquote>

<i>

No-one is required to carry ID so I would have said I did not have any.

</i>

</blockquote>

<p>

I'd be very careful about denying that you have ID when indeed you do.

Even the good ol' liberal California courts sometimes have held that lying

to police gives them sufficient cause to forcibly take a wallet and search

for identification (how they knew the suspects were lying prior to the

search always escaped me, but the judges did not ask for my opinion).

<p>

You certainly are not required to carry ID, but whether or not you need to

show ID (or just state your name) varies from state to state and possibly

even case by case. In 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court held that a Nevada law

requiring a person detained under suspicious circumstances to identify

himself (the opinion took this to mean stating his name rather than showing

ID) did not violate the Fourth and Fifth amendments to the U.S.

constitution. The situation in other states depends on

state and local laws, as well as how state courts have interpreted those

laws, so that nearly identical laws in different states can have different

meanings. For example, <a href="http://cryptome.org/rnc-rights.pdf">

this article</a> by an attorney for the Just Cause Law Collective compared

Nevada and New York laws, and concluded that refusal to show ID in New York

is not grounds for arrest. If the issue really is important and you want

to be safe, <em>consult an attorney</em>. Only you can determine whether

it's worth the cost. Even then, if a cop doesn't seem to be aware of the

law (or doesn't care), you need to decide whether it's worth pushing the

matter. The ACLU of Northern California suggest

<blockquote>

In California, you cannot be detained or arrested for merely refusing to

give your name. But you can be in some states, including New Mexico and

Nevada. And in any state, police do not always follow the law, and

refusing to give your name may make them suspicious and lead to your

arrest, so use your judgment.

</blockquote>

The final sentence often is the key; even if the police are wrong, they may

arrest you, and they will lie if necessary to cover themselves. Judges

usually believe the police. As for suing the city or the police or

whomever: how many lawyers do you know who have become rich suing the

police? Sad but true; always has been, probably always will be.

<p>

If you really want to stand your ground, the ACLU and the <a

href="http://www.lawcollective.org/article.php?id=205"> Just Law

Collective</a> have additional pointers on how to handle encounters with

law enforcement personnel. There are many other sources as well, often

probably more reliable than anything said here. As always, of course, when

evaluating legal advice that you take from the web, consider that it may be

worth what you are paying for it.

[michaelging]

They did not have you sign the ticket? You are suppose to sign the ticket ,which is where you state that you will appear at court. Usally they will not release you unless you sign the ticket.

[m_.]

I think what James Kim was saying is that, the cop gave you a chance to walk away and you refused. You now have to go to court and prove that you had the right. That's idiot.

 

But I had a similar incident years ago when I was a hot blooded student partying at a friend's house. At 2 am saw several cops cornered a black kid across the street from the house. A half drunk, I walked out the door and crossed the street. So it goes, a drunkard questioned a team of cops about the arrest of another drunk driver. I don't need to tell you the rest of the stroy but one thing is that I just started this new job. So there you have it. I was an idiot...

 

Don't worry about who has the right. Cops do in this case because they have the ticket, and you only have the camera.

 

Now did you get the shot?

[v_s8]

Mr. Kikin, you ain't kickin -- really Oleg, you just made it harder for all of us, street photogs. Cops are people too, you wouldn't ask stupid 'why' questions & try to make your point if they were gangsta members in in da Bronx, would'ya? Gotta be street smart, not street cocky. And did you get that shot? I wish you the best in the court, but oh boy, that was stupid.

[Spearhead]

Is there a reason why it is so important to you to identify someone as a "black guy." If the guy had been white, would you have commented that he was a "white guy"?

 

Maybe this is an indicator of the treatment you got...

[thomas_sullivan]

never signed one in New Jersey either.

[lb-]

don't need to sign it ( or at least I don't remember ever signing them) and if it's a

summons to appear you DO want to appear. trust me.

 

they get all kinds of mean about it when you stand them up.

 

that said of the 4 times I had to appear before a judge in NYC 3 of them consisted of me

wasting a day sitting there waiting my turn only to have the case dismissed for one reason

or another.

 

anyway, hate to say it but you shouldn't argue with cops. never leads to anything good.

 

and while your copy may be hard to read his is not so call the number on the back, enter

in the summons number and make sure you show up. and bring a book, you'll probably

be sitting there for hours.

have fun!

[rj]

I would love to see a statistic on how many times it pays off to argue with a cop, doesn't seem like it would be very good odds that the civilian would win the argument.

[oleg k]

Thanks everybody. I realise it was stupid of me to argue with a cop, it's just the first time in many years I have a problem like that. I've been photographing all over manhattan for 4 years, never had a problem. And I did photograph cops at work, they never said anything, I just assumed since it's legal, they can't do anything.

 

I found a very interesting thread about that:

 

http://www.flickr.com/groups/newyorkers/discuss/72057594069761326

 

Quote (written by RubyMae):

 

"Cops are bullies. If you want to make a stand and spend the night in Central Booking, so be it. I've worked as a criminal defense attorney for 13 years now, and believe me, myself and my clients will do anything possible to avoid spending any time in those pens.

 

Furthermore - the "law" isn't going to protect you. One it's going to be your word against the cops (and who do you think the Judge is going to believe?) and two, the cop is probably going to charge with disorderly conduct, or obstruction of governmental administration - both charges that are very difficult to beat.

 

Some things are worth making a stand for. Getting arrested because an officer tells you to stop taking photos is not high up there on my list. Particularly, when you can just wait until the officer leaves and go back to shooting. (Or, go out to one of the subway stops in an affluent residential neighborhood - such as 7th Ave in Park Slope or any of the Forest Hills stops - you'll never see an officer and you can shoot subways until your heart's content.)

 

Seriously, getting arrested because you won't back down with a cop isn't going to change anything. Neither the district attorney, Judge or general public (at least here in NYC post 9/11) are going to be particularly sympathetic to you plight. There are more effective ways (contacting your council people and representitives, for example) to raise awareness about this issue. "

[tholte]

Oleg, I think you learned your lesson. Never argue or be sarcastic with cops, big city or small, nothing good will ever come of it. NYC cops are still miffed at Rudy's hammering their union to keep them underpaid (in their opinion) so they have no sense of humor when people get smart with them. In the future when confronted by the coppers, act like a stupid tourist and retreat. Works for me everytime.

[Uhooru]

Yawwwwwnn

[robert_m_johnson]

Photographers right to free speech violated... , It really does happen! :-)

 

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132932

[icuneko]

Get a GOOD lawyer, call the number on the back of the summons to find out more, prepare your case well, and show up for the court date with this lawyer. Obviously you don't know the legalities of what's going on here.

You have rights; the police have responsibilities in doing their duty. When these two collide it's time for good legal representation. Don't assume you were wrong--or right-- nor the police. Just build a good case and present it. Such are the times.

[tholte]

Robert, "Photographers right to free speech violated... , It really does happen! :-)" Not a very good example. Why can't a private newspaper fire a free-lance photographer if they don't like his work? Maybe I am missing something.

[kelly_flanigan1]

New York State Penal Law, section 240.00, sub 5.

[kelly_flanigan1]

<a href="http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3(b).htm"><b>NEW YORK PENAL LAW<BR>

CHAPTER 40 OF THE CONSOLIDATED LAWS<BR>

PART THREE--SPECIFIC OFFENSES<BR>

TITLE N--OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER, PUBLIC SENSIBILITIES<BR>

AND THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY<BR>

ARTICLE 240--OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER<BR></b></a><BR><BR>@FIN