RIP Kodak B&W Films

[charlie_strack]

I visited Kodak's site today. Most of the B&W films are being discontinued, including:

 

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Commerical Film, Ektagraphic HC, Ektapan, SO-132, High Speed Infrared Sheets, Spectrum Analysis Film, Pan Masking Film, Verichrome Pan film, Professional Copy Film.

 

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It looks like the only ones left will be the revised TMax Family and revised Plus-X and Tri-X families.

 

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Some of these, we've known, were going away for quite some time, but others were, at least to me, news.

 

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So, I'm not buying anymore Kodak product of any kind. I'll support those companies that support B&W.

 

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"Alas, poor Kodak. I knew him well."

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

When was the last time you used any of those films? Besides

Verichrome, which I guess was hard for them to keep making, what

other film of those discontinued you used more than once in a year?

Why do you expect Kodak to keep making films nobody else buys or

needs?

Man oh man you want some cheese with your whine? I think instead of

complaining you should support them so they continue making the T

films as well as the Pan x and tri x, if you don't use any of these

films then I guess your "boycot" amounts to a hill of beans since you

don't buy their products to beguin with. I am not associaciated with

Kodak nor do I think they have any respect for their customers, or

that they know what they are doing business wise, but I am also tired

of people whining that their favorite film is gone when the last time

they bought a roll or sheet box was 2 years ago!

[fritz_reckow]

Jorge, I simply cannot understand your argument, nor your tone

against Charlie. Not only good B&W products are getting rare, but

also manners! Kodak wants to cater for the professional market, so

they have to supply the products needed. I can only encourage everyone

out there not to buy Kodak products until they are back with some

useful products in the B&W field. TMax certainly is not what many

people think usable for high quality photography!

[david_parmet1]

I have to agree with Jorge on this. Obviously if there was a huge

market for these films Kodak would continue to produce and sell

them. The sad fact is there isn't. But that's reality.

 

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This is a business decision. Probably a very good one on

Kodak's part since they'll have more resources to support the

product line that remains.

 

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I'll miss Verichrome but I'm not going to throw a tantrum. I'm

going to find a film to replace it.

[ryuji_suzuki]

"TMax certainly is not what many people think usable for high quality

photography!" (Fritz Reckow)

 

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I think this is a controversial one, at least in today's my point of

view. I hated T-MAX and Delta until a few years ago. When I look at

my pictures, while my favorite images tend to be exposed on PX and

HP5+, there are certain set of favorite images whose high quality

heavily relies on the TMX's property.

 

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Many developers simply don't work well with TMX. Even with a good

match, there aren't many papers that are good match with TMX. I tend

to use paper I know well and manage the mismatch in different ways

than simply choosing Ilford MGIV or similar papers. The real question

is whether the transition from Panatomic X and D-76 to tabular grain

films and newer developers worthwhile spending some effort to adopt.

[back alley]

i have not bought a kodak product in years and i don't think i'm

missing anything. ilford films & chemistry work wonderfully for me.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

Fritz it is not lack of civility is annoyance with this same topic

which crops up every other week. If you bother to check the archives

you will see that the pronostication of Kodak's demise has been going

on for a while. I at least bother to read the archives before I post

something like this. But my biggest complaint is when people state

<b> I will not supporte them because they dont sell my favorite film

anymore </b> which of course they only bought once every few years. I

for one, would like to see Kodak around for many more years and

making T max, TXT, Pan-x, etc films, than have them go under and have

none of these films at all! So yes Fritz I have no patience with

people who whine when they are not part of the solution. You know the

saying you either lead, follow or get the heck out of the

way....whining is not an option.

[david_parmet1]

Looks like Plus-X is also going the way of the dinosaurs. I never

used it so I can't say if this is bad or badder.

 

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In any case, I've been playing with FP4+ for a few months and

that will probably be my replacement for Verichrome Pan.

[charlie_strack]

Jorge:

 

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I regularly used Verichrome pan until the announcement of its demise.

 

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I used SO-132 film about 2 years ago to get a useful, printable

negative from an antique negative. NOBODY

[charlie_strack]

Sorry for the duplicate posting. I wasn't finished.

 

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Jorge, to be specific:

 

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I regularly used Verichrome pan until the announcement of its demise.

 

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I used SO-132 film about 2 years ago to get a useful, printable

negative from an antique negative. It worked out very well, but

NOBODY else makes a similar film.

 

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I used Prof Copy film about 2 years ago, and Ilford Ortho Plus is as

close as I'll get, so I'll use that.

 

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Why did I post? I was shocked to find everything I still had an

interest in will soon be gone.

 

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Why won't I buy other Kodak films? For color, I find other films I

like as well or better. For black and white, they will no longer

manufacture anything I want. Will this hurt Kodak: not from me alone,

but in the aggregate it will.

 

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I certainly don't expect Kodak to make films when their business

model doesn't justify it. I also don't expect them to be in business

25 years from now (if they last that long.)

 

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It's just very sad to see the one company that had the greatest

knowledge of film and black and white processes throw it all away.

But if that's what happens, that's what happens.

 

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Why should I support any company that treats its customer (in this

case for over 40 years) so shamefully?

[jon_porter1]

I have to admit I felt the same way toward Kodak when Kodachrome 25

was dropped -- and I'd bought it even though Kodak priced it as one

of the most expensive films on the market. But as others have noted

the question isn't what Kodak films will still be available several

years from now, but will Kodak still be around in a few years?

Kodak's net income fell 95% last year. I imagine in addition to

layoffs and reorganizations, that means the company has to look at

its product line to see what can be cut without adversely affecting

sales.

[david_parmet1]

Why should I support any company that treats its customer (in

this case for over 40 years) so shamefully?

 

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Charlie,

 

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Unfortunately we aren't Kodak's customers, at least their main

customers. That would be the folks buying Gold UltraMax 200

color film at Genovese, shooting a dozen or so pictures of the

kids and dropping it off at the QuckieMart for one hour

development.

 

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Now as soon as my father-in-law shows an interest in

Verichrome Pan or Ektachrome for his point and shoot I'll be

shooting off emails to Rochester asking them to reconsider.....

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

Charlie wrote:

 

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<b>I used SO-132 film about 2 years ago to get a useful, printable

negative from an antique negative. It worked out very well, but

NOBODY else makes a similar film.

 

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I used Prof Copy film about 2 years ago</b>

 

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Well there you go! even you are admitting you used two of these films

only once in 2 years, the rest from your list not at all. I know,

many people are upset because of Verichrome, but let me tell you

something besides the business there is environmental concerns,

sometimes Kodak has to stop making the film not because there is no

demand but because environmental regulations do not allow them to

continue with the waste streams required to manufacture the film, for

whatever reason the film is gone, but I dont think is a reason to say

they are not treating you the way you deserve as a customer, is only

business and you are taking it personally. Look, Michael A Smith and

Paula Chamlee love using Azo paper, and when they found out it might

be discontinued they made a commitment to buy as much paper as they

could and to market it to other people so Kodak wont discontinue it.

SO then as you see, like I said, you want to complain put your money

where your mouth is and come up with a solution, otherwise, do no

complain, since you are not doing anything to be part of the

solution. As a matter of fact you are becoming the problem by not

supporting the only company in America that manufactures film. In any

case, I dont think they will miss your business, for the looks of it

it is probably better for them to loose you, since it appears you

only buy Verichrome, than to keep you and continue making a line that

is loosing money.

[fred_de_van1]

Get Real Jorge,

 

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The photo world was not concieved by Bill Gates, and everything Kodak

does does not have to be mass market. If Kodak had supported B%W

photography over the past 30 Years it would be much stronger today.

Kodak activly killed it off as best they could.

 

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I doubt if Kodak ever lost a penny on B&W products that were good

ones. They just do not fit the tiny minds that run the place.

 

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Even if B&W was a money looser, they still would have a lot more to

loose of they had not come up with the Disc system, Photo CD, APS and

numerious other very bad ideas. The way Kodak operated was/is the

problem, not the way the marketplace works. The manner in which they

bungled Photo CD, Digital, Medical Imaging, were all travisties, and

the demise of B&W is more of the same. This is an outgrowth of them

moving the military to systems they planned years ago, that did not

work fully. Without that big consumer they have no idea what the real

market looks like. I could go on and on about the stupid things they

did, but my point is, do not attribute common wisdom to Kodak. It has

no place there. There is no reason in this world why Kodak could not

set up small botique units for any product they cared to make and make

a sucess of it. Instead the fired or retired anybody who knew how.

 

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It is not the effect the market is having on Kodak, it is a result of

Kodak's effect on the market. Everybody looses. We have seen it

before.

[kevin_kolosky]

There are so many brilliant minds here that know exactly what they

want and how Kokak is not giving it to them. Sounds like time to put

one's money where one's mouth is, sell some stock to others with the

same bent, start a coating line, and make the products everybody

seems to want and need.

 

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Kevin

[ed_hurst]

Is Tech Pan being discontinued?

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

I think you are the one that needs to get real Fred, sure Kodak has

made some marketing mistakes, just like Coca Cola and every other big

company, remember the Cadillac Cimarron, or the Mercedes 190, that is

not the point. The point is everybody here is a Monday quaterback

whining how big bad Kodak is taking away the film they like, but I

dont see the same people complaining buying any of these films they

are so upset about! Like I said environmental and business reasons

are valid ones for removing a product line, and just because they

have made mistakes in the past does not mean their current descicions

are flawed. I think you and everybody else should get off your high

horse and start seeing reality and recognize that Kodak is not wrong

all the time! Like I said, it is only business, nothing personal.

 

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Many people has foreseen the demise of Kodak because they removed X

film, so far they are still around and all of the people whining have

egg on their face and have learned to use another film. You don't

want to support them because they removed your favorite film, fine

but then don't come whining again when they shut down B& W products

alltogehter. They way I see it is a self fullfilling profecy, the

more they loose on B&W neagtive film the more they will be willing to

shut it down in favor of digital or some other new imaging

technology.

I love using TMX, and TMY but I also use Delta, ACROS etc. Should

Kodak decide to remove the T films I can either complain or do

something about it. So no Fred,I know you have been around for a long

time and have lots of experience, but you need to get with the

program and see how things are changing and not all of their

descicions will be to the liking of those of us who like traditional

or LF photography. So instead of complaining and having a defeatist

attitude we should support those product lines they do have now.

[fritz_reckow]

It is frigthening how much the brainwashing of industry has worked in

the US. Not too many people on this listserv are discussing what is

good for the consumer, but what is good for the industry. Industry and

consumers are two sides and the interests of the consumers are often

very opposite to the industry, just as in this argument! Jorge: You

seem to like to listen to yourself a lot. Simply repeating your -- if

I may speak frankly -- stupid arguments does not make them better, nor

will TMX become better by this. Isn't it sick to start argumenting

from the viewpoint of the industry, how much better the fewer and

worse products they offer are for the consumer, instead arguing for

more and better B&W products from the yellow father? They are

obviously more interested in PR than good products on this sector. See

for example the XTol disaster. This product was announced and promoted

with big money in all journals, including large articles by Zawadzky

(hope I spelled her name right) how well this developer was tested.

Now see the reality. Now please Jorge, no more monologues of this

quality.

[david_parmet1]

"They are obviously more interested in PR than good products

on this sector."

 

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No, they are interested in making money for their shareholders

and returning their business to profitability.

 

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Businesses act like businesses. They aren't charities and none

of us should expect charity from Kodak. It would have been nice

if they figured out how to continue marketing black and white

products years ago so that division would be profitiable but they

didn't. Bad Kodak. End of story.

 

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One thing I do disagree with Jorge however. Instead of asking if

any of you used any of these films recently I'd like to know if any

of you invested in Kodak stock? Maybe if you felt the pain Kodak

shareholders have been feeling the past few years you would be

screaming for them to drop b/w instead of continuing to market

an unprofitable product line.

[ricardo_spanks]

Kodaks primary responsibility is to its shareholders. And that

responsibility is to increase the value of its shares. That's

capitalism. The consumer is only a part of a company's strategy to

turn profits. That's the way the system works. Some people in the

past have tried to change the system and plenty of people today

don't like the system. Too bad. Try to buy a good roll of film in

Cuba, or Russia, or the Mideast.

[nick2]

Richardo,

 

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This is the biggest nonsense I have so far seen on this forum. You

probably are one of the shareholders.

Best regards,

Nick

[ricardo_spanks]

I'm not a shareholder, Nick. But if I were, and Kodak became more

valuable transitioning their business from, say, silver to digital,

don't you think I would want that decision to be made?

R.

[ed_hurst]

Perhaps by boycotting all b&w products, Kodak will be encouraged to

think that if they are to get any b&w revenue at all, they must

produce a wide range of b&w films. I don't think it's very likely...

 

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In the end, people must do what they can square with their

consciences and principles. If that means boycotting all Kodak

products, then so be it.

 

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This is clearly an area where the wishes and needs of the specialist

consumers (us!) are at odds with the commercial needs of the supplier

(as analysed by themselves). Where that is the case, it is

unavoidable that commercial decisions will leave the consumers

unhappy. Unless a commercial solution can be devised.

 

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In this kind of situation, people must do what they think is right.

Whether they take the line of boycotting on principle, or accepting

the position because they believe it is commercially unavoidable,

then so be it.

 

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But I don't think there's any value in people rudely taking chunks

out of each other, or expressing opinions as indisuptable facts. If

we disagree with each other, that does not mean that someone has to

be an idiot.

 

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Let's remember that we are all photographers, and that we should all

have the same basic interests at heart.

[ian_bowskill]

I'm sure Kodak will be quaking in their boots at the thought of a

handfull of photographers boycotting their products. Has anyone

thought of meaningful dialogue with the company? Over the

years films have come and gone and my experience is that there

is always a substitute for a discontinued film. Have any of those

complaining actually tried the alternatives available?

 

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Ian Bowskill

[steven_alexander1]

I guess, by the above argument, you will not use Ilford B&W

products;

FP4+, HP5+, Delta 100, 400, 3200, or Fuji; 100, 400, 1600

because of their limited choice or reduction of product.

 

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The reduction in production of types of film reflects demand for

the product, if your aim is to kill Kodak B&W film product then

please continue your boycott; however, if your interset is in

continuing to use B&W products, go out and buy and use it. They

do not make films to adorn their catalouge pages.

 

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Happy snaps,

 

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Steven