Has any one tried Classic-Pan 400?

[rgans]

Whoever makes the paper, it's great paper. Just not all that

available. I have tried contacting Bergger in France with some

questions (about other issues), at info@bergger.fr, but have never

received a response from them. I would like to hear something

definitive from both Bergger (France) and Forte about this. The thing

is, on Bergger's web site, their English blurb does not actually

claim they manufacture anything. The French version is much more

specific:

 

<p>

 

"Nous continuons la tradition de fabrication de produits de qualité,

spécialement des papiers photographiques noir et blanc dont la gamme

s'est considérablement enrichie, ainsi que des produits adaptés aux

procédés alternatifs.

 

<p>

 

Nous pensons que nos produits de haute qualité vous permettront

d'exprimer, de manière originale, votre créativité et votre talent."

 

<p>

 

Of course, a close reading of the French version also indicates they

do not actually claim they manufacture, but it is very suggestive.

 

<p>

 

I'm going to test the papers myself (Bromofort vs Prestige).

[john_horowy]

Mr.Michler,

 

<p>

 

I have not run out of arguments, but I failed to see who elected you

judge and me public defendant.

 

<p>

 

I have clearly stated here and all over the interent that Bergger

uses manufacturing facilities all over Europe.

 

<p>

 

Ask your Sear Kenmore dealer where the factory is. Ask Luminos where

the factory is. Ask Zone VI where the factory is. Ask Epson where the

factory is. Get my point?

 

<p>

 

What you accusing me of is simply fraud. This insults me and my

organization.

 

<p>

 

I appologize to Ed and all who read this thread, but enough is enough.

 

<p>

 

If you don't like Bergger Products, don't use them.

 

<p>

 

John Horowy

Bergger Products, Inc.

[alfred_michler1]

Dear Mr. Horrowy, please reread my comments carefully. I have never

accused you of fraud nor have I implied this. I want to make this

point very clear.

As to the French text on the Bergger site: I guess General Motors,

Ford, VW, Honda, Mitsubishi, Renault and many other car makers see

their production of cars in the tradition of Carl Benz!

[volker_schier1]

John, I find your comparisons very interesting indeed, but also

puzzling. Do you want to tell us that you compare the way Bergger

does business to Sears, Luminos etc.? Off course everyone knows that

Sears for example does not produce any of the goods they sell, they

have them rebadged by the manufacturers. I own a Sears washmashine

which is also sold as Frigidaire and GE and is produced by Frigidaire

(see for example Consumer Reports). Obviously neither of these three

washmashines is better or worse, they are identical, only the price

differs. If this is what you are trying to tell us by using these

comparisons than you actually do admit that Bergger is rebadging the

products they sell. I would not know how else to interpret this

comment of yours.

[john_horowy]

Mr.Schier,

 

<p>

 

We manufacture to our specifications. We use facilities all over

Europe that have the expertise in the products we're producing. Some

do a better job for film, some for paper. We contract the machinery

and time and mix our own emulsions, period.

 

<p>

 

We do Not rebadge anyones products.

 

<p>

 

I don't know what else I can't tell you.

 

<p>

 

John Horowy

Bergger Products, Inc.

[agnes_frey]

As someone who has worked in the photo industry I can tell you that

this is not the way it workes. The "mixing" of emulsion -- as you

call it -- is a process which is very specific for one setup. It is

hardly possible to simply take one "ipe" and and have it made by

different manufacuters, despite the fact that I have not heard of any

manufacturer who whould do this.

[john_horowy]

So what's your point?

 

<p>

 

That you used to work in the photo industry, or that you haven't

heard of any manufacturer that does this?

[volker_schier1]

John, I think we have reached a point were it gets really ridiculous.

I think everyone understands quite well what Agnes is trying to tell

us -- obviously without the exception of you: The analogue would be

that Sears sends their people over to Frigidaire (to stick to your

comparison as an example) to use their machines to build Sears

washingmashines! I think everyone knows that this is not how it is

done! I guess you really can't argue that Bergger people are going to

Vacs in Hungary to mix up the emulsion to be coated. Despite that

Forte would not allow this, it does not explain that the products are

the same. The Bergger people then would have to mix up Forte emulsion

to make this miracle happen. Agnes has already pointed out that the

curves of Bergger film and Forte film are identical. I think this is

more than proof.

[john_horowy]

Mr. Schier,

 

<p>

 

It's obvious that I can't give you an answer that you will be happy

with, So I'm not sure I even owe you one at this point.

 

<p>

 

I do not appreciate being accused of being a lier!

 

<p>

 

Bergger has 1000's of satisfied customers, all appreciate what this

little company brings to the pallete of papers in this country.

 

<p>

 

Now, please go find someone else to pick on, and possibly get a

little psychiatric help while you're at it.

[volker_schier1]

Dear readers of this listserv, I think the last statement by John

Horrowy speaks for itself. I am convinced that a manager of a serious

photographic company would never write comments like this. Just for

the record: I did not accuse you of lying.

[david_parmet1]

Volker,

 

<p>

 

Than what exactly are you accusing John of?

 

<p>

 

For the record, I could care less if Bergger papers and film were

manufactured by elves in a tree. I've used both and I like the

results.

 

<p>

 

You on the other hand seem to have some chip on your

shoulder. You badger John and the other members of this

board on and off list every time Bergger products are discussed

or even mentioned in other contexts.

 

<p>

 

Do you have something on YOUR mind you'd like to share with

the class? Is there something YOU know that we don't? I didn't

think so.

 

<p>

 

And for the record again, please don't email me off list again. I

could do without the spam.

[corine_schleif]

Just a moment Dave: We are all on this list to discuss matters of

photography. Volker's arguments are very good and he has the same

right as all of us have to contribute to this list. In fact he

addresses issues that many of us are interested in. We do not live in

Enronland, were the industry controls publicity. Our country is built

on free speech. I also think that the answers Mr. Horowy gives are

more than thin. In addition to that I think that there is no excuse

for insulting Volker. Since you defend Bergger that much: Are there

any connections between you and Bergger.

[paul_jones7]

Hi,

 

<p>

 

Thanks for every ones replies to my question.

 

<p>

 

I have one more, Is Fomapan T200 the same as Fortepan 200?

 

<p>

 

Thanks,

Paul

[david_parmet1]

Yes Corine, My whole house was built with bribes from John and

I named my first born son Bergger.

 

<p>

 

In fact, I'm really just a Berggerbot. Even as we speak I'm

tossing out all the Oriental Seagull, Tri-X, Verichrome Pan and

Ilford MG IV out of my darkroom and I'm planning on doing the

whole thing over with Bergger advertisments.

 

<p>

 

Now really, does invoking Enron really bring anything intelligent

to this conversation or do you just want to delve into further

conspiracy theories?

 

<p>

 

Cause I've got a ton of them but I don't think any of them are

appropriate to this forum, despite what other folks may think.

[david_parmet1]

And another thing....

 

<p>

 

Considering that Bergger is one of only two companies I'm

aware of that have ever responded to a question or comment on

these boards concerning their products, I think John deserves

far better treatment than the roughing up he received here.

 

<p>

 

The universe of black and white film and chemical suppliers is

shrinking daily. I think the efforts shown by the representative of

Bergger as well as the other company in question on these

boards speak volumes about their commitment to the black and

white photography community.

 

<p>

 

And I think it's pretty sad that some will take my words to mean

I'm on the take.

[alfred_michler]

Dave, calm down! Volker has every right to say what they want to say,

also you have this right and Bergger, as long as they do not insult

anyone. So far I have only seen the Bergger representative insult

someone here and this should not be tolerated. The highest penalty in

soccer is the Red car. I will definitly show him mine, since I think

his last comment disqualifies him as someone I want to do business

with. I guess this discussion is very necessary, since in this world

much has to do with money, also photography. I definitly want to buy

the best products for the least money. That the B&W market is getting

smaller is really no argument, as long as the manufacutring companies

stay in business.

[volker_schier1]

Dear Paul, to you question: No, they are not the same and very

different in characteristics. Fomapan T200 is my favourite film.

[agnes_frey]

Dear Mr. Parmet, dear Mr. Horowy, I did not want to send any further

comments to this specific question, but now I feel I have to. Mr.

Horowy, you write a lot about your company being insulted, which I do

not see, but I think there is absolutely no reason for ad hominem

attacks. Mr. Parmet, please stay reasonable. Your answer to Ms.

Schleif is not productive at all. This is a listserv for discussion

and all relevant topics should be addressed. I feel this is a relevant

topic.

[russell_brooks]

I am not convinced that the Classic Art Polywarmton is the same as

Forte PWT Plus. I have both and printed on both and get different

results. It could be age, it could also be that the wrong thing got

into the Classic batch...<br>As far the the debate goes I think it's

time to stop the Bregger "bashing". If they repackage Forte or any

other brand it doesnt really matter. Many companies in many

industries do this and it's legal and even ethical. It's up to us to

decide if the "added value" of the new label is worth something to

us. The best example of this was a marshmellow factory in Las Vegas.

It seems all the marshmellows in the US come off the same assembly

line. If you want to pay more for the stay-puff brand instead of the

local generic brand then so be it. And my comment to the Bregger

representative is to just stay above the fight and to stop commenting

on this thread.

[georges_giralt]

Hello !

I've seen a lot of "noise" regarding Bergger products.

I've read numerous interviews of the CEO of Bergger in France.

He admited the do not produce themselve the papers they sell, but that

those paper are custom made for them in west europe, india, and maybe

other places.

He told that they ask for a recipe because he knew this recipe is

working because it was a Guilleminot one. And he stated that today, to

make a FB paper you must be doing RC B&W or color in order to make the

money the FB will cost you.

But if I've understood him well, none of his contractor will have the

right to use the recipe for its own products. So you may come close,

but not the same.

I was told that some paper where made in the Czech Foma factory and

that they switched elsewhere due to quality concern ? (the FOMA group

does not have FB variable papers on their listings)

So you may have some papers from Forte, from Foma, from Sterling, and

others...

BTW someone told me that TETENAL papers are not made by TETENAL.....

Who knows ?

[rgans]

If Bergger farms out production to other makersthat would explain

some of the vagueness on their web site. The quality of the product,

so far in my limited experience, has been wonderful. Quality control

issues aside, it's a great idea because it lowers the capital outlay

and thereby the risk, allowing them more flexibility over the long

haul, with varying market conditions. However, the notion that

Forte=Bergger does persist, has been around for a few years, and

apparently is the belief among some retailers in Europe. If Forte !=

Bergger, then that would also explain some of John's exasperation.

[russell_brooks]

It seems that the tetenal paper's are actually from AGFA.

[fritz_reckow]

Russell, I compared Bergger and Forte warmtone papers and had the

impression that they were identical. I cannot detect any difference in

paper base or emulsion.

[ed b.]

I find it a bit unusual that every time Dr. Schier posts on the same

day as Agnes Frey and Alfred Michler they all have the same IP

address, traceable to Arizona State University. Dr. Corine Schleif is

a real person--a scholar at Arizona State, who collaborates with Dr.

Schier--but I am unable to verify that these other folks are real. It

is also a bit unusual that these folks never seem to make posts

regarding any other subject. One might conclude that Dr. Schier has

some sort of vendetta against Bergger. That doesn't prove that he is

incorrect in regard to the origin of Bergger products, but it does

cast doubt on his motives. Why does he take every opportunity to

denigrate Bergger? Surely it is more than just a desire to keep us

poor fools from getting ripped off.

[bob_randall]

Volker Schier has made some very disparaging remarks concerning

Bergger Products and John Horowy. They seem to be opinion stated as

fact. I doubt that anyone on this list has the credentials necessary

to back up the contrary claims that have been made regarding the

aforementioned. I am quite sure that with the exception of John

Horowy, no one, including Volker Schier, has ever been in a facility

that produces either Forte or Bergger materials. I suggest that Volker

Schier come forward with his or her phone number and mailing address

so that Mr. Horowy may at least have an avenue open for an appropriate

response. During the discovery portion of a civil court action Volker

Schier could demand to see Bergger's manufacturing operation as well

as the documentation supporting it's formulas. This might have a

calming effect on Volker Schier's ire. Also during discovery, Mr.

Horowy would be able to see the support materials that lead Volker

Schier to his or her incredible and damaging statements. Let a jury

decide who is telling the truth. I firmly believe Bergger and John

Horowy would prevail in court. Hiding behind the email address of a

large university allows anyone to say anything without fear of

sanction. Stepping forward in full disclosure requires a bit more

truth and character than Volker Schier may possess. Shame on anyone

that would spread such nonsense, and shame on anyone that would listen

to it.