Film/Paper combination for REAL green

[georg_kern]

Hello,

 

after re-animating my color printing a year ago, I have constant

problems to get a real good green in prints from landscapes. In

neutral-filtered prints, grass and leaves always come out much to

warm (yellowish-brownish), while I prefer a blueish green much more

for such subjects. I did not have this problem a few years ago, when

I printed on Agfa Signum (which is not available anymore) and Fuji

Crystal. At the moment, I work with Kodak Endura.

 

As it would be expensive and time consuming to test a lot of

film/paper combinations, I would like to ask if anybody else has

encountered the same problem (and has found a solution). My guess is,

that this effect is either caused by the changed red response of

modern films (for fluorescent tubes) or by the laser-printer

optimized color papers.

 

And, BTW, I am not talking about the green on a colour checker, but

about the dyes in plants (mainly chlorophyll), which have a quite

special absorbtion spectrum.

 

Regards

 

Georg

[Ed_Ingold]

There is no green on a print - just a combination of cyan and yellow. Nor is there any way a combination of three dyes can duplicate a complicated spectrum of chlorophyll, for example. Life's a compromise.

 

Don't dispair quite yet. If you were using an inkjet printer, you would use a printer profile. A profile is specific for a particular printer and paper combination. You can get some very good profiles from paper manufacturers.

 

The same principals could be applied to wet prints. A slide taken of a Gretag-Macbeth Color Checker, used to determine the filter pack, would get you in the ball park. Want more green - use less magenta.

 

I suppose you could scan a print of the Color Checker slide (using a calibrated scanner) and determine the corrections photometrically - in effect creating a profile for a color head filter pack.

[bill_tuthill]

What film are you using?

[elliot_n]

Not sure what Edward is going on about, as you've already said that you're printing

neutral, and still getting yellowy greens.

 

I know the problem you are referring to. I find that Kodak Portra films handprinted on

Kodak Endura paper give very red/yellow greens - nothing like the cool greens I see on my

polaroids (Fuji FP100C). I think you will get better greens using Fuji negative, though in

other respects I prefer Kodak Portra.

[benny_spinoza]

I'm a relative beginner when it comes to color processing, but I do not have the problem you encountered. I print on Kodak Endura from Kodak Portra film, such as 400UC and 400NC. I can get neutral prints with very good greens in the grass and landscapes. I'm not sure what advise to give. But are you printing with negatives that you have printed before with good results? Or perhaps there was a problem with the film processing. Is the paper relatively fresh? You really shouldn't have this problem.

[Ed_Ingold]

Elliot,

 

I am "going on" about color calibration. You can adjust filters on a color head - you don't have to take what you get. Neutral is completely subjective unless you have a grey card in the image. I wouldn't call Georg's description of foliage "neutral."

 

This is kinda' basic stuff, Color Theory 101 in the digital domain. Forty years ago we used a reflective densitometer - now there is better, more affordable technology, even for wet prints. It seems non-productive to be searching for THE film and THE paper. Life is too short.

[elliot_n]

'Neutral is completely subjective unless you have a grey card in the image. I wouldn't call

Georg's description of foliage "neutral."'

 

I was assuming that when he said 'neutral-filtered' he meant that he had some neutral

reference in the image (other than a grey card - e.g. an overcast sky, a white wall, a strip

of asphalt) that when printed neutral would still render green foliage inaccurately.

 

All colour neg films have their quirks, and you need to find the right film/paper

combination to suit your subject matter. (Unless you can't be bothered, of course!)

 

Compared to the digital domain (paper profiling, with hundreds of individually adjustable

colour patches), conventional colour printing is very limited. Crank up the magenta

filtration to improve the greens in your foliage, and the human subject in the middle of

your frame (for example) will start to look very sick...

 

But if printing test targets works for you...

 

I hear some colour printers use colour analyzers...

 

Each to their own...

[jtk]

Epson pigments on any of a wide variety of papers.

[edgar_njari]

I'd really like to recomment switching to chromes, but that may not be a good idea without a good scanner.

[Ed_Ingold]

Elliot,

 

You misunderstand. I'm not saying "ingnore the problem," I'm saying "make it work, don't wish for a miracle."

 

It is a broad assumption that Georg included a grey card in the image (let's hear from Georg). Even so, neutral on a grey card is a single point calibration - all the color curves intersect on an 18% density point. Calibration against a color chart give the best fit over a range of hues and densities. At that point, you have a baseline from which you can make small adjustments to get what you want.

 

An obvious solution is to scan the film and create a master digital image on a calibrated system. If you still want Crystal C prints, have the file printed on a LightJet, Fuji Frontier, or whatever. Then you have complete control over linearity and gamma for each color.

 

Sometimes we push this "organic" thing too far.

[georg_kern]

Hello,

 

thank you for the great input. To be more specific:

 

Neutral grey filtering was achieved by exposing a grey card at the beginning or end of the film under flashlight. There might be some color shift in the outdoor pictures due to a different color temperature, but the red-shift in the greens was much stronger than you could expect from that. Also, more-or-less neutral subjects like clouds, rocks etc were fine.

 

I use Kodak Endura (Supra, because it is more universal than Ultra), because it processes very well, has a very useful contrast range and is (at least here in Europe) dirt cheap at the moment. I am free to switch to Fuji Crystal (now the only competitor), but a package of 30x40cm is not that cheap, and so I wanted to hear about other peoples experiences before. Also, I would have to recalibrate everything (including my "gut feeling"), and maybe it would also mean to switch over to Fuji films, as films in general still print best on the same manufacturers paper.

 

My favourite films for outdoor are Gold 100 and Portra 160VC. Agfa Ultra is also nice, but I only liked it on the (now gone) Agfa Signum, not on the Kodak paper.

 

To explain some of the effects that bothered me: when I look at a landscape with the naked eye, I can see different hues of green, but they differ only slightly. But in the finished print, while some greens are still okay (e.g. conifers), some other "greens" like springtime foliage can look like it's autumn, and grass can sometimes look almost like corn that is ready for harvesting. As yellow flowers (which are known to reflect lots of IR) also turn slightly orange, I suspected a problem with the near-infrared response of films.

 

So, I guess, my next order will be a pack of Fuji Paper. Hope it works with Kodak films, because I am not a big fan of the Superia 100 nor Superia Reala (I only like the "old" 120 Reala).

 

Thanks, and regards

 

Georg

[elliot_n]

'grass can sometimes look almost like corn that is ready for harvesting'

 

Your observations mirror mine.

 

I don't think switching paper is going to help - the problem is with Portra film.

 

Whilst I use Portra for the majority of my work (portraits), I have settled on Fuji NPC for my

personal projects (urban landscape).

 

NPC has similar contrast, grain and saturation to Portra 160VC, but without the quirky

colour responses.

 

It looks similar printed on Fuji CA Matt, or Kodak Endura Supra.

[georg_kern]

Thanks, Elliot, it is good to know that I am not paranoid. I have already considered Fuji 160C, but this film is not so easy to get in Europe, and is only available as single roll in 135 (5-pack just for 120) here in Austria (and also Germany) at a rather steep price of at least 6.50 Euro. But I will give it a try.

[bill_tuthill]

I'm not surprised by the yellow-brown shift you notice when

printing Portra 160VC. On my HP S10 scanner it looks muddy, although

not as muddy as 400VC. Ctein's 2001 review of it in Photo Techniques

magazine complained about lack of saturation for all colors except

red and orange. But that was as printed on Supra III paper before

the Endura change-over. Scott Eaton says Endura has less saturation

now, so perhaps the cyans that (it sounds like) you need are lacking.

 

However I am surprised by a yellow-brown shift with Gold 100. That is

a nicely balanced film. It scans superbly for me, though with more

grain in blue sky (where I notice it most) than Kodak 400UC or NPH.

Maybe you got a "German" version of Gold with muddier greens.

 

Here are some suggested alternate films: NPC might be best due to

relatively desaturated magenta which should work in favor of greens.

Hopefully 160C will replace it nicely. I know they are faster films,

but NPH and 400UC are worth trying because, on my scanner, both have

a complete range of greens. For me in California, the problem is

getting gradation in all the yellow-greens and olives. I find 400UC

does this better than NPH, so maybe it would be the other way around

for you. Good luck!

 

Oh I should add that most slide films are poor at green gradations.

Velvia 50 compresses them into a smaller range of hues, Provia 100F

has a tough time with yellow-greens, etc.

[edgar_njari]

Maybe it's just me and my technique but I find that the entire portra family renders natural greens as a soft yellowish ton, so I don't really count on any portra film to give me greens.

[benny_spinoza]

You wrote: "Neutral grey filtering was achieved by exposing a grey card at the beginning or end of the film under flashlight." Well, how in the world can that help? The color temperature of a flashlight is not the same as sunlight, and who knows what type of illumination was available for your exposures..perhaps sunlight and reflected skylight? Perhaps your filtration is incorrect. I use a color analyzer to help me. And for goodness sakes, I get great greens with Portra film on Kodak Endura paper with also great skin tones. So it CAN be done with Portra and Kodak paper!

[scott_eaton]

Haven't tested the new Kodak Endura papers for green response because I'm not a 'wedding' shooter, but previous Supra papers delivered very neutral and not warm shifted greens.

 

I'd dump the portra film for landscape work though. Try NPH.