5D gripe and a question

[nickm]

Coming to my first digital SLR from an EOS RT (with its marvelous

semi-transparent fixed pellicle) - meaning no mirror to swing up,

MIRROR LOCKUP IS LOUSY! LOUSY, LOUSY, LOUSY!

 

sheesh...

 

How on earth can one hope to catch decisive moments with a shutter

button that has to be pressed twice? Where's a crying smiley? I

just paid $3000.

 

Doubtful I'm making too much of camera shake considering the manual

warns of blur on macro and telephoto shots.

 

The ancient RT (with its non-ultrasonic film winder) is actually

quieter in RT mode with delayed film advance than the 5D is in any

mode. "Clunk" (mirror lockup cfn #12) "Wurr, Cluck-Clack" Ok.

Technically this is a second gripe, which is overdoing it. Sorry.

Here's my question:

 

Q: Is there a way to recall the lens/focal length that was used?

Info doesn't appear to record it. Could this be omitted by chance?

Please tell me it isn't so. I didn't install the software yet since

my wife has an sd450, using the same version of the download

software. Is lens data retrievable in one of the Canon apps?

[gluteal cleft]

You can always use flash for macro, or IS for telephoto. =)

 

As to recall the lens/focal length, it's in the EXIF data. If you look at the EXIF data embedded in the JPG, you'll find stuff like the ISO, shutter speed, aperture, focal length, flash info, etc..

 

Now that's what Adobe returns for the EXIF info. However, there's more info embedded in both the JPG and the CR2 than that. Because EXIF data is limitted to official fields, I suspect that the extra is non-standard stuff that Canon stuck in alongside the EXIF data. Tools like exiftool can read them, one of which is "lens", and returns a field such as "70.0 - 200.0mm (35mm equivalent: 109.4 - 312.5mm)", and "max aperture", such as "2.8".

 

It also includes stuff like the hyperfocal distance for your chosen focal length/aperture, white-balance RGB values, how some of your custom functions are set, and lots of other stuff.

 

steve

[neild]

How on earth can one hope to catch decisive moments using mirror lockup?

[NK Guy]

While I agree that Canon's user interface for enabling mirror lockup is poorly thought out, I

don't understand what you're complaining about either.

 

If your goal is to snap photos and grab the decisive moment then I don't see how MLU is

going to benefit you. Just shoot normally. There isn't going to be much quality difference

between a photo taken with a locked mirror and one without. Try it.

 

MLU is really meant for static situations, such as shooting landscapes and stuff, where

you're trying to squeeze every bit of image sharpness out that you can. This, in my

experience, is never the same situation as one when you're trying to go for a "decisive

moment."

 

What do you mean by "Info doesn't appear to record (lens data)"? What software are you

using to examine the EXIF headers? If the software you're using can't retrieve the data

then, yes, use Canon's software.

[ci_p]

"Is there a way to recall the lens/focal length that was used?"

 

The focal length is stored as a standard EXIF parameter. The lens used is (with 1Ds2) saved in the Maker's notes section and is not part of the EXIF specification. ExifTool does a quite good job extracting this info and has quite a large database of canon lenses.

[lester_wareham]

I agree if one is used to the simplicity and speed of mirror lockup on older film cameras the modern DSLR method seem very cumbersome - I don't see why a button could not be assigned to MLU via a CF.

 

I have another gripe with using my 20D on a tripod, no viewfinder shutter - my old film camera had them but not on a modern camera, instead I have to fiddle with a bit of plastic on the strap.

[gary_jean1]

Decisive moment and MLU are mutually exclusive, unless your decisive moment means sitting around waiting for the sunset.

 

Try "C" setting on your mode dial and kwitcherbeliakin.

[christian deichert]

I can't stand using Canon's ZoomBrowserEX, but am too lazy to disable it loading up after I download directly from the camera (no, I don't want a card reader, I actually like how Camera Window dumps everything into dated folders without me having to act or think). Pulling up a recent photo and viewing its properties, I can see:<p>

 

Image name<br>

Camera model<br>

Shooting date/time<br>

Shooting mode<br>

Tv (shutter speed)<br>

Av (aperture value)<br>

Metering mode<br>

Exposure compensation<br>

ISO speed<br>

Lens*<br>

Focal length<br>

Image size<br>

Image quality<br>

Flash (on/off)<br>

White balance mode<br>

AF mode<br>

Picture style<br>

Sharpness<br>

Contrast<br>

Saturation<br>

Color tone<br>

Color space<br>

Noise reduction<br>

File size<br>

Custom function (followed by the values for all 21 functions)<br>

Drive mode<br>

Camera owner<br>

Body number<br><br>

 

* For the Lens value, all I see is the focal length; for this shot, it reads "70.0 - 300.0 mm" only and doesn't specify which 70-300mm lens it is, so if you have more than one lens for a given focal length or lengths, it may not differentiate.

[digitmstr]

>>How on earth can one hope to catch decisive moments with a shutter button that has to be pressed twice?<<

 

You mean with MLU? One doesn't capture decisive moments in that mode. If you want to capture a fast moving, object in MACRO photography (like a fast flying insect, etc...) you'd use a *flash*.

 

If you're talking about telephoto work (i.e birds, etc...) your shutter speed will generally have to be fast enough to make it a moot point.

 

Anyway, you knew the 5D didn't have a pellicle mirror before you bought it (I certainly hope so) thus, why gripe about it? You weren't duped so, don't make it sound as though you were.

[nickm]

There are plenty of decisive moments where sharp pics are needed. I sit in a photo blind waiting for pine siskins (birds) to strike a great pose, or just sit still long enough to be a good subject. The light is a bit on the low side since I'm "in the pines"

 

Regarding flash for macro, consider that your hand is being force here. Maybe you haven't experienced the real fun of not being bound to a full flash exposure, which I feel looks unnatural. I have for the last 5 years shot macro with available light and fill flash. This yields a vastly better result. A natural light background is so much better. Not all macro shots lend themselves to this, but with patience most do.

 

I'll bet Canon comes out with a pellicle type digital slr before long - if such a thing is technically possible.

 

Did the 1N RS sell much? I recall a nostalgic but brief surge in interest in the RT when the RS was released.

[digitmstr]

>>The light is a bit on the low side since I'm "in the pines"<<

 

Right. But, if you are shooting birds wouldn't your shutter speed be at least fast enough to make mirror slap a non-issue?

[rustymadd]

>Is there a way to recall the lens/focal length that was used? Info doesn't appear to record it.<

 

The "Info" button is only for examining basic image, camera setting, histogram, and card information.

 

Exif info stores the bulk of the information for after the fact record keeping. If you want to know what focal length and/or lens you're using, look at the cylindrical object connected to the front of the camera. If you want to know what lens, focusing point, and/or focal length you used, use Zoombrowser.

 

C Painter

[phule]

<<(no, I don't want a card reader, I actually like how Camera Window dumps everything into dated folders without me having to act or think)>>

 

Uhm, Christian,

 

Zoombrowser doesn't work any differently with a card reader.

[nickm]

Shutter speed for shooting a perched bird is incidental. I shoot these in aperture priority, usually wide open. Most of these bird shots come off at between 1/8 and 1/90. Rarely I shoot in-flight birds.

 

Imagine how fast the mirror is moving. From what I have seen, It imparts quite a blow to the frame. An EOS 650 without an attached lens sounds as if it will flip over from the impact. If the camera body moves at all within the timespan of an exposure, the image on the sensor is shifted. The prevalence of MLU mechanisms suggests that sharpness is very much compromised. If the camera body moves at all within the timespan of an exposure, the image on the sensor is shifted.

 

The distance the camera body moves from the impact is obviously very small, but the speed it travels is fast. Though I am rarely fortunate enough to be shooting with a fast shutter speed. My sense is that shutter speed will not have a significant impact on camera shake unless very short exposures are available (maybe 1/500 and better?).

 

The believe the most regarded property of a wildlife image is sharpness. With the large image size, 5D shots are probably cropped quite a bit. As my images get closer to actual image size by cropping and resampling, I find myself hoping and praying that scanned slide (and now digital image) sharpness is deep.

[david_littleboy__tokyo__ja]

It sounds as though you've never used mirror lockup on a mechanical SLR before: it's always a two-step operation. First you twist the miror lockup lever, and then you take the shot. So the 5D interface is logically equivalent, but actually easier to use once the camera is in mirror lockup mode.

 

Personnally, I hope Canon doesn't make a pellicle mirror camera: between more optical surfaces to degrade the image and the loss of 2/3 of the light for the viewfinder and 1/3 of the light to the image, it's a hideously bad idea.

 

If you are really seeing camera shake problems in the 1/9 to 1/90 range, you may simply have an inadequate tripod, or be introducing the shake yourself if you are not using a remote release.

 

I've taken sharp handheld shots with the 5D down to 1/15 with wide angle lenses (although I don't expect sharp images, of course), so I don't think mirror slap is as nasty a problem as some people think. I suppose it may be nastier with long lenses, especially if the camera is on an inadequate tripod.

 

My experience is that I don't need MLU for down to 1/15 or so on a solid tripod even with longer lenses, but I use it for longer exposures. I hear a _lot_ of people complaining about the menu access bit, but it turns out the menu system defaults to opening the last used item, so in a session in which one switches between MLU and non-MLU shots, it's really not that painful.

 

And any decent EXIF viewer (or RAW converter) will show the focal length used.

[les]

To be honest, Nick, for the life of me I can't figure out what your post is about. I do not know if you have a problem, then (if you have it) what the problem is, or what do you expect to hear.

Since most of your concerns (focal length info etc.) appear to be related to EXIF data - I would suggest first to install Canon software (or RawShooter, or some such), and then RTFM.

 

And if you expect sharpness - do not shoot at 1/8 sec. since that gives the subject the opportunity to move in that time (wind ruffling the feathers etc). to spoil your picture.

 

MLU and 1/8 sec is good, but not for birds (my opinion, YMMV).

[nickm]

Yes you are right. I have not used a mirror lockup before this. The process involved in MLUs usage was the shocking revelation for me. Likewise, you have no experience with a pellicle. It doesn't consume 2/3 of the light, only 2/3 of a stop. In my 7 years with it, the pellicle has never had more than light dust which was easily removed. Dust on a pellicle has much less impact on an image than dust on a sensor. Sensors are more problematic in this regard as you probably know. Always an unfriendly thing to suggest someone's favorite feature is horrendous, or whatever you called it.

[delwyn_ching]

Maybe it's the user and not the camera with the problem. Sounds like you should be shooting point 'n shoots rather than a very good full-frame digital SLR.

[ken munn]

An aside really.

 

One would expect mirror-induced vibes (if any) to die down pretty quickly. So would

mirror vibes only likely have an effect across a limited range of shutter speeds. Faster

speeds - say over 1/100 - no problem, medium speeds say 1/4 to 1/100 MAYBE a

problem, slower speeds no problem because the vibes would have died for most of the

exposure time.

 

If so, maybe the answer to Nick's somewhat idiosyncratic problem is to forget MLU and

shoot slower? I know there'd be an increased problem with subject movement, but the

keepers should be really good.

[christian deichert]

<i><<(no, I don't want a card reader, I actually like how Camera Window dumps everything into dated folders without me having to act or think)>><p>

Uhm, Christian, <p>

 

Zoombrowser doesn't work any differently with a card reader.<p></i>

 

Yes, Rob, that's correct. But I was talking about ZoomBrowser's kittle brother, CameraWindow. As my camera and computer are currently set up, I turn my 5D and computer on, plug the USB cable into each, CameraWindow (not ZoomBrowser) starts up, and my files automatically begin putting themselves into folders sorted by the date of the exposure. THEN ZoomBrowser starts up.<p>

 

I am sure with additional effort, hardware (card reader), and possibly software, I could achieve the same or a similar result with a card reader. But I don't need to find out, because what I have meets my needs.

[phule]

<<I am sure with additional effort, hardware (card reader), and possibly software, I could achieve the same or a similar result with a card reader. But I don't need to find out, because what I have meets my needs.>>

 

Christian,

 

I'm not sure you understand that CameraWindow and Zoombrowser are tied together. Using a card reader with the supplied Canon software will behave exactly as you describe when you connect your 5D to your computer. The software has been creating date-based folders with a card reader for me since my first digital camera was purchased in 2003.

[nickm]

(quote)

 

"Maybe it's the user and not the camera with the problem. Sounds like you should be shooting point 'n shoots rather than a very good full-frame digital SLR."

 

jees... Why this unfriendly attack? I'm a friendly person with years of macro and telephoto experience. This would be fine if I were a some rich/jerk combo and completely new to photography.

[adam rosser]

Nick

 

Have you tested to see if you get any mirror-slap movement in images at various shutter speeds? I expect you won't see any unless you are using very long focal lengths. Even then, at 1/8 you are likely to see much more subject movement than camera movement.

 

Try it out. You may be surprised. Most of the sound when you take a picture is the mirror returning to its normal position and recocking the shutter. The upswing of the mirror contains vibration damping to prevent the problems you are concerned about. Anything that happens after the shutter closes can't affect the image.

 

Anyway, be using a swinging mirror instead of a pellicle mirror, you won't lose the 2/3 of a stop and will get significantly faster speeds.

 

You will need to get used to the different shutter lag and mirror blackout from your RT.

 

Cheers

Adam

[nickm]

Well that was fun and quite informative. Thanks all. First to learn about EXIF data. Its relieving to hear that there's so much stored. Regarding camera shake, if someone else doesn't beat me to this, the remote release is arriving tomorrow and a few tests are in order. I hope that MLU becomes MOOT. Won't being as fun otherwise. Just got the marvelous 580ex today. They sure have come a long way from an EZ on a EOS 600 series! : - )