Strange markings on my B&W negatives

[jp zorn]

I'm getting odd round irregular marks on my last 2 rolls of

negatives I've developed. They are on the edge and although fairly

new to processing my own negatives I've never seen this kind of

thing before. I recently switched to the Patterson tanks and did one

of the rolls in a double tank (with 1 full roll at the bottom and an

empty on the top) and plenty of D-76 1:1 and another in the single

roll tank and both rolls had the same problem. The film was Ilford

FP4 125 (120) and was both times developed in D-76. I'm getting a

little frustrated trying to get good evenly developed negatives in

general. Is there a combination of 120 film and developer that is

the most reliable and goof-proof?<div></div>

[richardw]

I had similar lighter parts at the side of my negatives. I've read on a different thread, that this could come from plastic reels and with metal reels you don't have this problem.

 

As I also use the paterson tank, your problem looks similar to mine. I didnt't switch to metal reels now and it didn't happen to me again, but maybe this helps.

 

regards richard

[john_finch]

That looks like bubbles from a tank without enough developer. If the dev foams this happens. You will see that the edge is underdeveloped and the little round bubble marks are present. This is what I tell my studes. Measure the level of liquid it takes to cover the reel by half an inch, that is half an inch above the reel. That extra half inch helps keep the foam and bubbles away from the film when the tank is rapped after agitations. See my website under Darkroom help...

pictorialplanet.com

[richardw]

P.S.: I found this picture, have a look on the right side of the picture. regards richard

[jp zorn]

Yes, I'm a little suspicious of it happening right after changing to the Patterson tanks - but tons of people use them without problems. So I don't know. And when I put the roll at the bottom of the double roll tank I put 700 ml in the tank just to be sure there wasn't a problem with the developer not completely covering the film. But the round stuff does look like foam or bubbles. Thanks for the suggestions. I might go back to my SS tank. Or fill the double tank to the top with developer.

[chris_waller]

I've used Paterson reels and tanks for twenty years and have never had this problem. It's an agitation problem. I pre-soak the film for 2 minutes. Then, after pouring in the dev I give the tank four inversions in the first 30 seconds. I give one inversion every 30 seconds after that. A few seconds before each inversion I give the tank a swift half-turn as it stands on the bench to impart some circular motion.

[john_finch]

Don't fill the tank to the top.. that will not help at all... but I think, as you describe giving enough developer, that you are not rapping the tank hard enough to get the bubbles through the platic gaps in the reel. I remember having a similar prob with Dixactol (it foamed a lot) and not rapping hard enough at first. After I started slapping it hard the bubbles lifted and the film was perfect again.

[john_finch]

BTW.. love the swan picture

[richardw]

Thank you John, richard

[jp zorn]

Yes, it probably is bubbles stuck in the reel. Problem is I'm hitting the tank a couple times pretty hard after every inversion already. I could hit it harder I guess and see what happens. I moved from the SS steel tank to plastic because I was messing up a frame or two just getting it on the reel with SS. Now I've got this problem screwing up my shots with plastic. Maybe I need to just find a good lab to mail out to. My patience is wearing thin. Thanks again for all your good advice.

[jordan_w.]

I get this effect with 120-format metal reels in an SS tank too. As far as I can tell, and from previous reading, the main cause of the problem is the reels sloshing about inside the tank (up and down the central support in the case of a plastic tank). It is not an issue for me with 35mm because these reels snugly take up the available vertical space inside the tank -- with 120, though, there is always a bit of room. The solution for me was to improvise a spacer that holds the loaded reel firmly at the bottom of the tank so that it doesn't slide to the "top" of the tank during inversion. I used a piece of hard plastic from a fridge magnet or something like that. That, along with using enough developer to cover the reel completely, did the trick.

[ronald_moravec1]

Use enough solution to cover the reel/reels. No more. Immediately after adding developer, rotate with the twist stick for 15 sec. Add the cap and do 2 inversions slowly enough for move as much liquid into the top area as possible. This should take 30 sec.

 

 

Don`t touch the stick again for the developer. Invert twice every 30 sec for Agfa or Kodak or 4 times each 60 sec for Ilford.

 

You can rap the tank after the stick twist if you need to.

[silent1]

I use both stainless (Nikor and Brooks) and Paterson tanks for my 120, and have never seen marks like this. It's not bubbles -- the lighter rim is extra negative density around the core that appears similar to the rest of the negative; if it were bubbles, it would print dark in the centers of the bubbles and usually have pretty clear imprints of the liquid layers between bubble cells. It's not classic circulation or surge marks; those would have a regular patter (in the case of 120 in a Paterson tank, matching the spokes on the reel faces).

 

To me, it looks more like deposits on the reels -- was your Paterson clean and new when you started using it, or used?

[jp zorn]

Tank and reels are brand new.

[rich_ullsmith1]

I am not inclined to invert the tank, out of concern for introducing more bubbles to get caught on the reel. The stick is adequate agitation, and to just tip the tank and rotate it will move your developer around enough.

 

JP, I had similar problems, actually exactly the same problems with 4X5 processing, and the answers were pretty much the same as above. I think the tendency early in the learning curve is towards too aggressive/frequent agitation. Way it was with me anyhow. Once the agitation became gentler and more methodical, the problems disappeared.

 

Do not despair!

[johndc]

I've noticed that some developers "foam" more than others.

 

Rodinal and Ilfosol do not foam nearly as much as XTOL or Diafine do. This probably has to do with the fact that Rodinal/Ilfosol are one-shot developers, while XTOL and Diafine are reused (Diafine sometimes for years).

 

Perhaps, as someone mentioned, a prewash is a good idea -- if for no other reason than to clean some of the anti-halation crap off the film and prevent it from getting into the developer.

 

I've had this "bubbling/foaming" problem myself a number of times, mostly on film I developed in XTOL or Diafine. I use Paterson and Samigon tanks.

[jp zorn]

Thanks for all the great thoughts on this. I may try the pre-wash idea. And I will also give the idea of not inverting the tank a whirl. The challenge is to find a consistent method of moving the developer around without getting the foam and bubbles. In the end, doing it yourself has got to be the best approach to B&W processing. I just have to get better at it.

[jp zorn]

<p>Hi - After a long lay-off I'm back to wanting to give B&W developing another try. My concerns are the same though as before. I did try some of the suggestions mentioned above but still have had very inconsistent results - to the point that I could not get myself to continue messing up my pictures anymore. I started using C-41 B&W film and having a lab develope it. Now I would like to give traditional B&W another try. Along with the problems with the edges (as seen above) I have also experienced a certain amount of streaking in my skies on a semi-regular basis. Again I have to ask if there is a more fool-proof method of developing - some developers that are more forgiving, some agitation methods that provide more smooth, consistent results, etc. - that can provide me with a greater degree of reliability?</p>