albert knapp md Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I am up at Tanglewood for the July 4 weekend and what a great place to start working with my R9-DMR. As luck would have it, a medical school classmate of mine is at the same hotel. With the wives busy touring this lovely area, my classmate and I started playing around with our cameras... my R9-DMR with a 28-90mm zoomlens and his Canon 20 with a 17-90mm zoomlens. My friend is a weekend amateur and contents to shoot in matrix and program or aperture... I, well you have all seen my work, fancy myself a more serious amateur..... Anyway, we shot together and the Leica got killed by the simple Canon... The results in matrix were attrocious at all ISOs with alot of clipping seen in the highlights... I ended up using EV: -0.5 most of the time. Spot was better but required EV changes periodically as well. The Canon was right on EVERY TIME even in complicated situations...My question is this: is this a problem with the R9 lightmeter? Do I send it back to be recalibrated or is it a DMR problem? A most embarrassing photoshoot but a great weekend otherwise...happy 4th! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_richardson Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Perhaps this makes no sense, but I think that the meter's response is different for film and digital. For film, the matrix meter is rarely fooled on the R9, but with the DMR, I usually shoot it at -.5 to -1.0 EV. With that basic correction, things seem to do fine. I shot with the same kit today -- R9, DMR and 28-90 zoom. Here are some shots from today. I was driving around the Reykjanes Peninsula in Iceland. <P><img src="http:// www.stuartrichardson.com/selantangar-sand-and-flower.jpg"><P><img src="http:// www.stuartrichardson.com/krisavik1.jpg"><P><img src="http:// www.stuartrichardson.com/seltun-hell-pit2.jpg"><P><img src="http:// www.stuartrichardson.com/seltun-view.jpg"><P><img src="http:// www.stuartrichardson.com/selatangar-arch.jpg"><P><img src="http:// www.stuartrichardson.com/route-42-2.jpg"><P><img src="http:// www.stuartrichardson.com/krisavik-kirkja1.jpg"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Canon's smarter by leagues than Leica, have been since the Fifties at least, but when you look at 20D prints they're overtly digital-looking in B&W. If you like that look, that's fine. Seems edgy-looking Vs routine excellent scans. 5D seems equivalent to film, but maybe that's giving up something charming about 20D. I think the game's over in color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brambor Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug herr Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Albert, I think that once you get to know your DMR as well as your classmate knows his 20D the conclusions will be different. As Stuart does, I often use the DMR in matrix mode with about -0.5 or -1.0 compensation. Writing RAW files with this compensation, rarely do I see clipping on either end of the histogram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee hamiel Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 My son just went to Beirut for a month - took an M7 & M6 TTL with a 35 Summicron Asph/Noctilux/90 Elmarit & also took along a Fuji Natura Classic; He left the 20 D Canon at home ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee hamiel Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I used the Canon 20D for a few pics for selling some items- great camera & great results - however - I do feel it's a steep learning curve if you've not shot much digital so a tough call on the "shootout". I'm going to suggest that you let the classmate use the DMR & let it rip - I have found that both of my sons who grew up on PS/Genesis/X-Box are way more inclined to work the menus & settings than me on digital bodies & yet my youngest son is a diehard film-based M user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_lehrer Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Dr Knappp,-- Who is this WE that is losing? I do not believe that I have enlisted on any side. I am currently a neutral party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew robertson Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Really, at this point, who cares? I am shooting with two theoretically obsolete cameras, the 10D and the R-D1, and I get great prints. The only factors I have accounted for other than print quality are portability, high ISO performance, and sensor crop size (full frame is better here folks). I am holding off on the 5D for now, and I don't know why. Perhaps because I know the 3D is just around the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew robertson Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 And additionally, Dr. Knapp, let me assure you that you are not handicapped by the DMR in any way. Do you shoot RAW? Please give it a try as you can increase dynamic range tremendously beyond JPG with the proper techniques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gib robinson Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Albert, It's hard to comment on your exposure issues without knowing what sort of lighting conditions you were in. Generally speaking the R9 + DMR is, in my experience, very accurate but shooting digital is like shooting transparencies, you have to be careful not to blow out the highlights. If the lighting conditions are ones where you would not shoot transparencies because of high contrast, chances are your exposures will need less exposure than your meter tells you. I agree with Doug, experientia docet. I love the combination you have with the 28-90. It's as close as I can get to an all-purpose lens. The image I'm going to upload was taken with that lens in the kind of light where few competent cameras would have trouble. No compensation necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolaresLarrave Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Gib, that photo of the girl is really, really good. It made me smile, regardless of the gear, conditions or technique. So, good Ole Doctor Knapp, look at the results of your DMR. I'm sure they're good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Ah, another great circling of wagons... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 How many posts on a thread with DMR in the subject take before Guy usually shows up proclaiming it to be the ultimate camera ever? Did he go to London looking for a rendezvous with Boris in some hotel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewlamb Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 They're still doing the sights. I thought I spotted them arm in arm in Soho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karim Ghantous Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Albert, just keep in mind that some photographers love the output of the DMR and prefer it to other cameras. I'm just saying. No need for the dramatic heading. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert knapp md Posted July 3, 2006 Author Share Posted July 3, 2006 thanks for the outpouring of support and advice. I agree that using an EV of -0.5 to 1 results in a perfect histogram. Why I need the correction and why the R9 lightmeter doesn't do this automatically sans correction is beyond me... so be it, correction will be made. I will continue to work at it and eventually get some pictures posted. Thanks again! BTW, does this rule of -0.5 or -1 EV apply to T and P as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert knapp md Posted July 3, 2006 Author Share Posted July 3, 2006 BTW, beautiful DMR pictures Stuart and Gib... I agree that for reasons beyond me that the EV cnange of -0.5 to -1 is necessary. Scientifically this does not make sense as I USED to shoot transparencies exclusively and was alwys sensitive about the exposure range anyway. My R8 lightmeters were fantastically accurate in this regard. BTW does this correction apply to T and P as well. Also, I have been using selective as well as matrix metering. I relaize that the above EV compensation applies to matrix and assume it would also apply to selective as given the crop factor, the selective area now represents nearly 30% of the surface... in essence making selective well NOT SO Selective. Do you all agree with my stratedgy?<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert knapp md Posted July 3, 2006 Author Share Posted July 3, 2006 sorry... strategy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart_richardson Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 As far as I know, the meter responds identically regardless of mode. Albert, if you primarily shoot with the DMR, there is a way to adjust the meter's response yourself. I believe it is in the instruction manual. You will need the film back. Using a sequence on the film back, you can adjust the R9's meter response in 1/10th of a stop intervals. So if you primarily shoot with the DMR you could adjust it to -.70 EV and that should solve most of the exposure compensation problems. One of these days I am going to set up a gray card and determine the EXACT sensitivity of the DMR and program it into the R9...This is just like a pro photographer buying a box of film and using the first roll to determine the true ISO and color filtration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy_mancuso Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Albert there is another issue that has come up before that some have experienced with the DMR and the R9. Here is the fix some folks have put the R9 on ISO 400 than put the DMR on and it has created exposure issues. Take the DMR off the body put the R9 film door back on and battery and reset the ISO dial to ISO 100 take a few frames empty than remount the DMR. Now if you continually are off by a great some and you see things jumping around than you may have a more serious problem and a few folks have experienced this also were the meter cells went bad in the R9 and than this needs to go into leica for a expensive replacement. When I did all my testing with the DMR and 1dsMKII the R9 was actually more accurate than the Canon 1dsMKII so it sounds like there is something going on there that is not normal. I use A mode quite often on my personal work a lot and really have no issues with compensating with either body or either DMR setups. If you have questions just e-mail me and maybe I can walk you through this. Guy Nels go out and actually shoot something instead of your mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy_mancuso Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Albert one other thing I should mention that i have noticed with my Nikon D200 is that this camera in default mode tends to underexpose. The reason for this is it looks like Nikon setup the camera for consumers to keep them from blowing highlights and it is actually not a bad idea in a way but you can compensate for it in the menu's. So some of these more consumer camera's maybe setup like this to begin with. Just something to be aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brambor Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 don't encourage him Guy. Once he starts posting you won't see the end of it. I venture to guess he posted more shots than you. ... and I know how your shots get all disrespected by the photo.net engine ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy_mancuso Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Thanks Rene i have no interest in dealing with any of them, they do what they want and if they don't want to go try something than just talk about it than it is there loss not mine but i will help folks that ask for it like Albert and i have posted on other forums with Alberts questions. So I will leave this site and the trolls i gave Albert some idea's to look at and now I will get back to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin m. Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 "How many posts on a thread with DMR in the subject take before Guy usually shows up proclaiming it to be the ultimate camera ever?" How 'bout you, Nels? It's been d-a-y-s since you've declared your undying love for your Canon 5D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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