dem_photos Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 "Have a look at an on-line video critique below and you'll soon get a sense of how it can only benefit the very beginner, if at all. http://www.radiantvista.com/dailyCritique/" Actually, I think there are a LOT of PN users (myself included) who could benefit from that sort of critique. "I believe a designated expert will always be challenged" I suspect you're right. To be honest, I think the dubious honor of being a designated expert would be the primary motivation for a lot of people who might take part in this (particularly if money is not involved). Perhaps you've put your finger on a fundamental flaw--but I still think it's worth a try, to see how it plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_laban Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 <i>"As far as who is qualified, I would expect the feedback from those posting images would tell you whether or not they're getting the kind of help they were looking for"</i><p>Is Carl Root the accomplished photographer he is because of critique or despite it?<p>The problem I have with much of the critique here on photo.net is that it stifles rather than inspires. Most punters and those who offer critiques are obsessed with subject and composition to the extent that they miss what image making is really about. Valuable critique should be aimed towards encouraging self expression, communication and help with direction rather than aiming to produce more 'photo club clones' or for that matter more "experts". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Keith, I hope you don't take this as an attack, because it isn't, however, you make the above statement having never posted a critique on this site. Now I am far from a perfect critique, but I'd appreciate the chance to be able to learn by the example of someone such as yourself: why don't you critique here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Of course I meant to write 'critic' not critique. (perhaps why I'm far from perfect at it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_laban Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Ben, I used to write the occasional piece but eventually deleted the lot; I just wasn't happy with the emphasis here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_g.1 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Responding to the original post about hiring "Experts" I like the idea , an expert would help at least teach some basics , that surprisingly some seem to miss , like over exposer, or burned whites , for examples ,Ive seen many over exposed shots recieve high marks ,Some just seem to not know this basic level of photography. The ratings show that . The taste or preference s of an expert will vary so a variety of experts may give balance or conflict . But over all they will point out the things that some take for granted and others dont know.If there are dis agreements they would be about hopefully things important or interesting . A critique from some one that has an opinion is fine , but there needs to be credibility , and looking at their work determines just how much they have and know. Sometimes just a "I like it " helps , some people find it hard to express in words , but the fact they took the time to let you know that your photo inspired them to write , shows you did something right . I like the Idea of having rates for Critiquers , a proven expert having maybe a 7 point rating value ,intermediate with a 4 point value and a beginner with maybe a 2 point rating value . Just a few thoughts , Im not proposing any thing , I would like to see something of this kind of system . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
root Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 I must say I'm pleased by the thoughtful responses and realize that I should have canceled my afternoon appointments so I could follow up on all these interesting observations. The idea of compensation is an interesting one, and I think that especially given the large number of critics who might want to help out in each of the categories, there might be a variety of motivating factors, not all of them noble. I would hope that we wouldn't resort to a rating system of the critics (heaven forbid!) but one thing that seems clear is that you have to maintain a supportive culture for everyone involved (as Michael points out) and that has to extend to all areas of the gallery. Tom, I think your comment about an educated PN citizenry is right on. The biggest challenge in this part of the site is that photographers don't know what they don't know. To pick an example, composition is codified far more than people realize, yet it's so hard to prove because people rarely get to see side by side examples. In my real world critique group, we are encouraged to bring in three or four similars and let people pick their favorites. Often there is a consensus, and you can do a comparative analysis of the subtle differences. Ben, I wouldn't want to throw out names without contacting them first. Keith, I don't think you can separate technique from self expression. There may be some who can express their unique vision through a point and shoot approach, but I think it's much more likely that they will find their own direction by taking the path that I did where you allow your work to be nitpicked. If you see something worth sharing, you're more inclined to pursue it, knowing that you have the tools that make your output more accessible to the viewer. Avoiding a distracting element in the composition doesn't have anything to do with insight or lack thereof. I do agree that discussing how without also focusing on why is a disservice . . . and yes, camera clubs can be guilty of that. You know you're a logical candidate to participate in the "abstract" group with me (along with a half dozen other potential candidates that come to mind.) I'm trying to promote a system that will create a supportive culture that will encourage you to consider it. There are others with a record of comments who I wouldn't expect to be as hard a sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_g.1 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Carl I did not mean rates for Critiquers , rather critiquers rating value. So if your photo is rated by an expert , it could recieve a rating 1-7 .Intermediate 1-4, A beginner 1-2 . But then , maybe raters could be as well too . But that was not my meaning originaly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_bingham Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 A good, honest critique can be very time consuming. A useful critique must also consider the photographer's current level of photographic techniques and artistic skills. A good critique should also inspire the photographer to do better without inflating or deflating his/her ego. A difficult thing to do. I critique my students' work, but it is almost always verbal and takes many minutes. I have three close friends that are also professional photographers (specializing in totally different arenas) and the discussions can be very enlightening - and often surprising. More than once my "favorite" was panned while my "also ran" would receive more positive comments. Makes you think. So how would photo.net recruit the already hassled and super busy pros? (I am retired - well, sort of, so I have time to play in photo.net.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 You wrote:<br><br> <em>Ben, I used to write the occasional piece but eventually deleted the lot; I just wasn't happy with the emphasis here.</em><br><br> Surely by doing this you've helped contribute towards the emphasis that you do not like? Self fulfilling prophecy perhaps?<br><br> Feel free to comment freely and honestly on my photos, I have thick skin and welcome any opportunity to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelChang Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 <i>So how would photo.net recruit the already hassled and super busy pros?</i><p> I bet there are plenty of competent photographers here willing and able to critique, and being pro shouldn't necessarily be a prerequisite as evident by the numbers of experienced unpaid photographers. <p> I think a community oriented site should have its own panel of volunteer "staff experts" such as a list of people willing to offer as least 1 critique a day, and members will be allowed to submit a critique request to specific individuals on that list. This will be a self-balancing system - the most requested members will naturally emerge from the process who will become the expert panel selected through a fair process where everyone wins, and at no cost. I can see a significant advantage in which comparative recognition and credibility will be earned through natural selection; how novel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 I think we can only expect it to work if the critiquers are allowed to do so anonymously - I can imagine some people getting very unpleasant about a crit they do not agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mg Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 "I believe a designated expert will always be challenged" I suspect you're right. To be honest, I think the dubious honor of being a designated expert would be the primary motivation for a lot of people who might take part in this (particularly if money is not involved). Perhaps you've put your finger on a fundamental flaw--but I still think it's worth a try, to see how it plays out." My view: it's a pretty simple thing, really. Either there is a demand for some "experts" - of what ever level and selected the way the site will wish - to write detailed critiques for a given fee (which would of course financially profit the site as well as the so-called "expert")... Either there is no demand - and then you can immediately close the case. IF there is a demand, perhaps the site will be interested to make a corresponding offer...? Assuming the site would indeed want to have some "experts", I suppose there would be an ad somewhere looking for the right people. These people could be members of this site - or not. The management would then decide whom to hire - based on a curriculum vitae, a portfolio, credentials, and perhaps some critique-samples. If there is a demand and an offer, and if they meet well, there will be a deal. Simple, isn't it ? "Too" simple...? :-) I think there is little point in arguing who would be "entitled" to be an "expert" or not. If you don't think that a given person can give you good critiques, you just won't hire him, and that's fine. As for "hiring" the "super-busy pros", I doubt the site or the members could afford it. But there are expert fine artists out there and in here who don't earn a fortune and who would perhaps accept to play a small part in the play. For example, despite the amazing quality of his studio work, Emil Schildt, who was published in many fine art books, is already a member here, and on another site I'm a member of, is probably not as busy as the photographer I worked for in 1995, and was doing the Revlon international ad campaigns and such. So far the most valuable comments I ever got were from him. He happens to be a lecturer in a high profile photo school in Denmark. I think he's the kind of person who MAY, I suppose, out of kindness more than for the money, accept to write some critiques, if he was paid to cover th time he'd spend here... It's just an assumption, but well worth asking him imo - IF there is a demand. I suppose in the end, that you'd get more candidates to write paid critiques than you'd wish to, and I'd gladly be one of them, but then I think it's the site's call, and ultimately the buyer's call, to decide who gets hired and who doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_laban Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 <i>"Feel free to comment freely and honestly on my photos, I have thick skin and welcome any opportunity to learn"</i><p>Ben, <a href=" http://www.photo.net/photo/4360324">see here.</a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_laban Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 <i>"Surely by doing this you've helped contribute towards the emphasis that you do not like? Self fulfilling prophecy perhaps?"</i><p>Absolutely ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mg Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Keith... You should write MORE critiques...:-) AND... You should not delete them ! Why delete them ? Don't you think your voice can be heard and be helpful to others ? Why not help them ? You are an excellent photographer, so what's wrong with explaining how you feel or what you think about a body of work ? It IS helpful - to Ben and to many others. I hope you will reconsider deleting this and hope you will write more ! :-) Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Keith, I've posted a response on the photo above. I'd just like to thank you here for taking the time to offer your thoughts - it's very much appreciated and I also hope you don't delete the comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
root Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share Posted September 21, 2006 Michael made an interesting comment about learning from good images, rather than getting help to fix your own flawed offerings. I think you progress by getting critiques from people whose photographic vision is similar to your own, though certainly not identical. If someone doesn't care for an image , there isn't much point in telling him how to change theirs so it will look more like yours, but the reverse is also true; people learn by emulating others. I like the idea of providing some sort of feedback loop that helps everyone involved determine whether comments received are helpful or full of hot air. A simple tally doesn't work, of course, because of genre preference, assuming we are all partitioned into categories. Most of you are aware that in the current environment, if someone offers suggestions for improvement, it's a waste of time if several friends have already left compliments. You can pretty much guarantee that the next poster will say that they like it the way that it is - perfectly civil, but over time puts a wet blanket on your motivations to continue offering critiques. It also undermines the credibility of the critic. Keep in mind that the site culture has been based on the assumption that everyone's opinions are equally valid. There are no experts. The discussion on Ben's image is really more of a portfolio criticism, and I agree that there are a lot of images that make me want to see if an idea has been explored further in his portfolio before I leave a comment. I would also add that I can't think of any way to improve Ben's image, so those who've suggested that on line critiques are more beneficial to beginners have a point. Several people have asked for improvements in the presentations feature. If they were more visible, that would be an excellent place for the kind of discussion that Keith has encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Carl, re your last point, I'm hoping that folders will soon be able to be sorted in any way we deem appropriate, even if that means by hand. Some form of folder commentary would also seem appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem_photos Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Regardless of what we ultimately expect of official critiquers (critique every photo in a category? critique one photo a week? something in between?) I think it's important that they be chosen primarily on the quality of the critiques they give before they are selected. This would encourage people who would like to become official critiquers to critique more and think more about the value of their critiques. Many people have complained in this forum that there is not enough critiquing at PN, but apart from requiring a critique with every rate (which I personally think would be useless), I haven't seen many other suggestions for encouraging critiques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhenry Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Indeed some people likes to be called "expert"... sol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 And some people like to hold it over others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niranjn Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Ben> I can imagine some people getting very unpleasant about a crit they do not agree with. If there is (and I think there is) a critical mass of thin-skinned folks, it will dampen the enthusiasm of even the casual critiquer, let alone the "experts". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Niranjn, did you mean Carl? He posed the original question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 .[.Z You're one of the people whom I'd like to see leaving more comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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