Is Leica in big financial trouble? Is this the end?

[dennis_couvillion]

"Next we'll be hearing how the Knight Templar are behind all of this."

 

Well... I did hear that Leica was considering a Mary Magdeline Commemorative Leica MP model. ;>)

[jonathan_stark]

Unfortunately, the cost of one new MP or M7 and one lens far surpasses the worth of my entire collection of 28 classic cameras and various lenses, accessories, etc. My one solitary Leica is now 59 years old. Much as I admire the current products, unless I win the lottery, there is virtually NO chance of my ever buying a new outfit of an MP or M7 and 2-3 lenses. None whatsoever. It is simply financially out of reach, despite my decent middle class income. A new Bessa outfit, OTOH, is quite realistic. Multiply my experience by many times, or consider all the folks who have bought new Voightlander/Cosina -- how would Leica be faring if those sales had been Leica's instead? I don't know the answer, but the illness is clear. There's a potential market of lots of folks still interested in film photography, who aren't going to pay $7,200 (B&H price) for a new M body and 28/50/90 lenses. The VC rough equivalents can be had for about $1,500 (Cameraquest prices, minus accessories). There's a heck of a better chance my squeezing $1,500 out of the discretionary budget than $7,200. Leica makes great machines & glass, but they're not going to make my pictures 4-5 times better!

 

I'm the guy to whom Leica should be selling, but they've got nothing I want that I can afford. Cosina does.

[Bill Blackwell Images]

"The cure: Leica buys the rights, etc. to re-run the Konica Hexar AF..."

 

And what do you propose Leica uses to "buy" these rights with? I am sure Leica is now in its lender's "work-out" (some call it "special assets") group and very short on cash!

 

Since Leica doesn't carry a low priced alternative to the M7/P the only way some can afford a Leica is to buy used or new grey. I find it interesting at a time when Leica is in deep financial trouble they could be boosting new camera sales by encouraging grey market trading. But instead, they are clamping down on the practice and making it nearly impossible for dealers to carry grey market equipment.

 

BTW: These lively discussion threads (rare these days) are the reason I joined PN in the first place.

[jtk]

Germany is still pretending to be a full player within EU but its quaint banking system is on life support...it's even more antiquated and feudal/socialist than the French and Dutch, which would like to be clones of Citicorp.

 

German "work ethic" boils down to Turkish, American, and Asian labor. Germany's primary contributions to world civilization come from abject lessons of its history and several beers that may rival Tsing Tao.

 

Leica, the consumer camera company, will probably spin off as a limited partnership that decorates the marketing of Pansonic or Sony.

[socke]

John, can you back up your bold words? Either with facts or with a sabre?

 

Just one hint, feudalism is opposite to socialism

[jeremy_tok]

Hermes owns only 30% of Leica shares, but it is the largest single shareholder and has a representative on the board of directors. Leica's 2nd quarter financial report from September 2004 shows a 50% decrease in revenues coming from "system cameras", meaning the R and M line, from the same quarter in 2003. On the bright side (or not), revenues from customer services and repairs were up 35%. Not surprising at all with all the quality complaints one reads on PN. I suppose Leica would be well served to stop producing cameras and binoculars and just be a repair shop. Before that, it can start a smear campaign against independent Leica repair people by sowing news of botched repairs, etc.

[paul t]

Volker, don't encourage anyone to indulge in their deluded xenophobia. It's

just not worth it. It's like wrestling a pig. You might win, but you won't keep

your dignity.

[douglas k.]

"Is Leica in big financial trouble? Is this the end?"

 

They're building cameras which would have been considered technologically unsophisticated decades ago, and charging huge amounts of money for them. They may stay alive as a niche seller (this is already their role) but not as anything more than that.

[Brad_]

They're clinging to the value of brand "mystique." Of people buying them thinking it's an

automatic path to producing work like HCB and GW. Similar to people buying Vettes and

Porsches around here - the owners don't know how to drive them. When I was into cars

way back, we'd routinely smoke em with econobox lowered Datsun 510s. That was a lot of

fun...

[claudia__]

i bought my IIIf because it is "pretty." "sweet." and small. never would consider trying to be HCB or GW. yes, and i hear the chorous going "well there's not a chance so its a good thing." (~_-)

[socke]

Brad, tht reminds me :-)

 

When I started to show interest in photography my father gave me an Agfa 126 with fixed focus and three apertures. He showed when to use those rotating flash cubes, how to develope the film and then let me alone with it. After the first three or four rolls he let me shoot a Contessa and over the years I "grew" up to his Master Technika but used the Rolleiflex most.

 

Same happend with cars, he gave me a Karman Ghia when I got my driving licence and much later he had me take driving lessons on the Nuremburg Ring befor I was alowed to drive his 911, this saved my live at least once!

[douglas k.]

"Of people buying them thinking it's an automatic path to producing work like HCB and GW."

 

This seems quite true of many Leica users, since posted photos often betray meager understanding of principles, such as exposure, development, and printing, that some of us learned on Pentax K1000s and such. I'm not sure if Leica will keep making those sales as digital makes it easier and easier to produce technically fine prints.

[jtk]

Volker, feudalism and socialism cohabit in mouldering old German banks, its for the same reasons socialist countries can't function without feudal arrangements. Same reason Hitler needed Stalin, and vice versa.

 

Don't get me wrong...I love Leicas. Just got a new/old 35 3.5 Summaron and BEAUTIFUL finder: I'm not saying that nothing good ever came from Germany. As you pointed out, Germany once made good cars. One of these days I'm sure it'll even produce listenable music!

[paul t]

Yeah, that Beethoven, Bach, and the rest, they sure ain't no Britney. But

whaddya expect from a feudal country?

[icuneko]

<And what do you propose Leica uses to "buy" these rights [Hexar AF's] with?>

 

 

Well, they could do like W and borrow a ton of money...

[jack_lo_..._t_o]

Here we go again.

 

Still, John Kelly; perhaps you could do us the service of explaining the terms you are bandying about rather than simply labelling. Which policies exactly are socialist/feudal, and how are they counterproductive compared to an American or Japanese model.

 

The EU created very strict (capitalist) standards for entry to its members. Germany, Switzerland and Holland qualified easily. Italy and Britain had to do some contortions. They all have excellent social safety nets but they don't believe in excessive debt.

 

They also have a different reporting system from our quarterly one, which rewards quick profits over controlled growth, and some say is better than ours. An LPF member produced a lucid explanation of it a while back.

[jtk]

Bach and Beethoven were Catholics, subjects of Rome, writing praises to a Roman deity. Even with his tin ear, Beethoven wouldn't have stomached Wagnerian absurdities. Bach would have hung around with Bauhaus hipsters, digging American jazz...in 2005 they'd both be down with Turkish symphonies or Rai, like other musically literate Europeans.

[dennis_couvillion]

"Bach would have hung around with Bauhaus hipsters"

 

... and he would have had a really cool, beat up, old retro Leica M2 loaded with Tri-X. (And he would have wiped off the haze from his old 35mm Summicron with the sleave of his shirt.) ;>)

 

Honestly... aside from a few predictable snipes, this has been a very interesting and informative thread. We must do this again some time... :>)

 

Dennis

[dennis_couvillion]

I meant "SLEEVE"...

[jtk]

Mr. LoPinto, to say German banks "don't believe in excessive debt" is both sad and hilarious (feudal and socialist?).

 

....as it happens, the terminally-indebted HBV Group, Germany's second largest bank, may soon be owned and guided by a TEXAS investor group, though an alternative is that Italians will be better suited...HBV's investors may soon decide between salvation by Ciampi or salvation by Bush.

 

Leica won't be borrowing money. The company has no value beyond brand and some formulae, both readily portable and undoubtedly relatively cheap (formulae are easily reverse-engineered). Nobody would want to keep the management in place, would they? And the manufacturing has mostly left Germany already. I'd guess it'll become a unit of Pansonic if not (at least temporarily) a limited partnership.

[dennis_couvillion]

"Germany's second largest bank, may soon be owned and guided by a TEXAS investor group..."

 

 

Ahaaa!! I knew Bush was behind this... ;>)

[boris_ochan]

Dennis: "You're not seriously suggesting that the leica MP is an insult to photographers?"

 

Not in itself, but as a rebadged M6 for twice the price, yes. If you could still buy a new M6

without the huge mark up then no, the MP wouldn't be an insult.

 

"a return to Leica quality and craftsmanship that had been reduced during the M6 tenure"

 

What was wrong with the quality of the M6? Sure there were quality control problems, but

it's apparent from this forum that those problems remain with the MP.

 

"brass.....not zinc"

 

But what's wrong with zinc?

 

"a durable chrome finish or a black lacquer finish"

 

Why not the option of a durable black finish (outside of a la carte)?

 

"some people regard the MP set up more desirable than the M6 type rewind"

 

I'm sure they do, we all have our quirks. Having said that, I don't recall (pre-MP) many

voices demanding the end of the angled crank and a return to the old style knob.

[jack_lo_..._t_o]

John Kelly. Please reread my post. I was referring to the country, not banks. Your propensity to laughter and to tears, if it troubles you, could be helped by paying closer attention to what you read.

 

Germany, the country, does not believe in excessive debt.

German banks do; all banks love debt-[as long as it is to them].

Germans as a people are big lifetime savers, despite a generous pension system.

 

You still have not fleshed out your feudal/socialism theory, -in sentences. By the way, I am convinceable; though I am not sure you are willing do it.

[paul t]

"Bach and Beethoven were Catholics, subjects of Rome, writing praises to a

Roman deity..."<p>

And your point is? You're saying they aren't German? So your statements

merely refer to German protestants? My point is that it's straightforward

xenophobia that's laughable, xenophobia demonstrated by statements like:

"Germany's primary contributions to world civilization come from abject

lessons of its history and several beers that may rival Tsing Tao."<p>These

words betray such ignorance that it's pointless arguing, but then that would

encourage the new wave of xenophobia that sadly seems to be on the rise.

German contributions to literature, printing, philosophy, music, architecture,

design, science, engineering equal or exceed those of any other nation. Altho

I do agree Rammstein leave a lot to be desired.

[._._z]

<i><blockquote> Kobayashi would probably be ecstatic to manage and direct Leica,

and would be likely to follow his soul as well as his bottom line in his production

choices. I would think Cosina would be a logical investor.

</blockquote> </i><p>

 

I doubt that he would see much business logic in buying the Leica franchise. Leica has

mismanaged itself over decades into market irrelevance through engineering atrophy

and a dependence on cash infusions from gimmicks like commemorative bodies. Cosina

found the sweet spot of price and quality level that the existing niche market of film-

based Leica-mount consumers (a market already small, and likely decreasing), and is

profitable in that segment. <p>

 

Unless Cosina were able to considerable sums after purchase reinvigorating Leica's

engineering department, and spending untold millions trying to successfully sell a film

rangefinder in today's marketplace (!) in order to pay for the revamping/acquisition,

they couldn't hope to be successful. <p>

 

Also, if Leica fails, Cosina has the means to go after the existing body market with a

higher-end product whose only competition will be used Leicas (one of Leica's main

competitors as it stands now). I imagine that this lower-cost alternative is more

appetizing to Cosina than taking over a long-hemorrhaging competitor oriented more

and more towards fondlers.