This is getting ridiculous!

[johnmyers]

I suppose the "abuse@photo.net" service really is fast and accurate. Thank you for the well-done implementation of that idea.

[root]

Marc, I don't think a survey would tell us much. I have some experience designing them, and have found it to be more difficult than it appears to be. But let's be honest, it would be designed only by Brian, and its' purpose would be to collect data to support his policies. If it didn't, he wouldn't publish it (and if he did, you could always say that the sample was skewed.)

 

Brian sees a TRP gallery that contains a high enough percentage of good images to meet his requirements for attracting people in sufficient numbers to browse through it. The fact that many of us feel it could be much better seems to be countered by the concern that any changes could as easily make it worse as better. For example, if we substantially reduce the ability of the rating whores to promote each other, they'll go elsewhere and the quality of images could drop below an acceptable level. (Some of them do upload some good images, after all.) That's why the limit of 7/7 ratings per day was set at a very generous eight and there seem to be several loopholes even in that limit.

 

In short, he does not have faith that the quality of uploads would be high enough if we disenfranchised the cheaters. Add the idea of identifying and promoting a variety of good images, rather than the repetative lowest-common-denominator popular images, and it all looks too risky to change.

[spaghetti_western]

"...I suppose the "abuse@photo.net" service really is fast and accurate. Thank you for the well-done implementation of that idea..."

 

perhaps you should have taken a deep breath and notified abuse at the outset before starting this 'ridiculous' thread. and perhaps the least you should do now is to start a new thread with your statement above as the lead-in because it seems rather buried here

[cappoldt]

Mark, I refer to them as The Spanish Photo Mafia (language spoken, not necessarily origin). There's the lesser but still formidable Middle Eastern Photo Mafia, too, but they don't seem to be as violent in their retribution.

[jayme]

Oh Vincent, now you've got your panties all in a wad again. I think everyone should have a counterpart/supervisor. No one should go unchecked, not even ole GW. OK? Sometimes, if left to their own devices, people tend to get a little extreme. GW is a perfect example! I was not threatening any ones job. I know Brian has a tough job, so do I, possibly so do you. But again, it is the extremes that need checked out. Re-read what he says, he basically is telling us to shut up or he'll not allow any complaints on the site feedback forum. I know it was probably a little tongue in cheek hunor, but geezzz, a lot of these people take the whole thing really seriously. And then if we don't like the way things are run, hit the road. I paid my membership dues, I like the darn site. It just needs a few improvements, that's all. But no one is suppose to mention that, we're suppose to act like good little boys and girls and behave, yes sir! Mr Brian. Oh this is all too much for me. I'll shut up and ignore the whole thing. This actually reminds me of the one and only PTA meeting I attended some 20 years ago. All these people sitting around trying to decide what fund raiser they'd devastate next. After 2 hours no one could agree on a decision. Then someone remembers, "Oh, we forgot to decide what kind of cookies we'll bring next time." Oh my God it's another hour decussion. Save me please!

 

When Brian took the names away from the rating, I agreed and said it was a good idea. It obviously has not helped a bit, it has left the raters unchecked. So now he throws out the 1/1. What good is that? Now the low-ballers use 3/3. I personally think it's funny. They adapt like a virus. Brian is probably right, there is nothing to do. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. And then they wonder why mate rating flourishes. Give me a Break! It's the big picture, the big picture! I see it now! LOL

[johnmyers]

Spaghettiman, I have every right to start a thread in this forum, just as you have every right to post in it. Did I foresee the outcome of such a thread? No. Do I care? Not really.

[spaghetti_western]

john, you mistook my post as chastisement (i wrote 'ridiculous' in quotes being 'this' is the topic!), but i see now that you started a good thread re kudos to brian for stuff that works right and without fanfare

[johnmyers]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

[louis1]

The problem is that with an ever increasing number of members there is enough critical

mass to support many different specialist groups who feel shoehorned into a very narrowly

focused procedure for getting visibility for their images.

 

People who consistently complain are doing so because they genuinely like the site and do

not want to leave. Others see this as a negative I don't.

 

There is only one real way to get good visibility on the site and that is thru ratings and that

is the reason for all this heat.

The cure is to create other ways of improving visibility for images. I suggested having an

option to see in a gallery each month ALL the images that MY "interesting Photographers"

had commented on in that month ie the same way I can see all the images they rated 7/7

or 7/6 etc. This would totally bypass ratings and give great visibility to images worthy of

comment by people I trust and respect.

 

Brian I sympathise but you are wasting your time "rising to the bait" so often. Consider not

replying but just leaving a note such as "Points noted" if you wish to let us know that a

discussion has not passed you by.

 

Brian you might also consider having a place on the site where you communicate with us

all either weekly,fortnightly or monthly. You could then state what is currently in progress

(problems, new facilities etc.) and what you hope to be working on over the next 3?

months. You could also take the time occasionally to say what you will not be doing and

why plus also what new ideas you have added to your list of things to do/consider.

 

I wonder if others would be happy with the above which would give us all a better idea of

the work being carried out and plans for the future. Maybe when some people see the

workload they will better realise the unlikeliness of their "new" suggestions being

implemented in the next 12? months and stop pushing so hard.

 

Louis

PS I am not saying go away just deal with us in a more structured and formal way.

[bens]

well said louis. a couple of other ideas -- perhaps brian can put some "stickies" at the top of the feedback forum that people can read explaining certain policies -- photography-on-the.net does this. yes, you can check archives, but not everyone appreciates this. the stickies could cut down on some of the repitition. second idea -- perhaps its time to create a two-tier feedback forum -- one, with limited text space, say 50 words, for non-subscribers, and this more traditional one for subscribers. the first will allow the site to get alerted to things that go wrong, etc., and does not have to be monitored necessarily by brian. the second allows members, with greater commitment to feel heard a bit more and does some separation of wheat from chaff, in that generally subscribers will have been around longer and have a deeper commitment to the site.

[jayme]

Well said Louis! Makes good sense to me.

[wilsontsoi]

. . . sort of like a monthly newsletter, perhaps? I like Louis' approach.

[jayme]

Louis & Wilson- you're on to something, a monthly news letter to let everyone know what's happening. That just might be the solution. Brian could feature a section for a volunteer photographer, someone different every month, to say a few words. I think that would be great. And maybe 2 different opinions like "Point/Counter Point". They could even include a referrence to the new reviews and help the newbies around the site. Excellent ideas! I hope Brian is readng, this is some good stuff Brian and it could be all volunteer. Less work for you and decreased anxiety for us "regular" complainers.

[root]

It's been suggested before. . . . .

[bens]

i'd settle for an annual report.

[louis1]

I would keep it as simple as possible to lighten Brian's work. I feel sure that he would

enjoy the feedback more in this more structured method. Then we would have a set place

to thank him for the improvements eg the new browse by category gallery for critique

requests, the gallery of a members top rated images etc.

Louis

[jayme]

Louis- I agree keep it simple, let the volunteers do the work. For example:

1-Choose one volunteer PN Photographer monthly to write a short summary about their experiences on PN. Pros/cons.

2-Choose one PN photographer each month as a monthly mentor to Newbies. Someone they could ask questions and get explanations about the site.

 

The more one knows the better off they are! Right?

Actually, all of this could be done through a forum. I think it would be neat! If Brian ok's it, we could just start a new forum. Maybe call it the Newbie Forum.

 

Brian would only have to monitor for correctness. Now all we need are some volunteers! So come on PN photographers volunteer! And of course Brian's OK.

[john falkenstine]

Just don't ask for Vespa Pictures.....and point out that repetitive images from Tuscany and Venice are boring....I barely made it home in one piece...

[louis1]

You have strayed away from my point which was about Brian and his thoughts on where

the site is and how he is developing it plus his involvement in this forum.

 

Your newbie suggestion is an extension of the FAQ. If wanted this could be a CATEGORY in

each forum.

[jayme]

You are right. Sorry, my mind was wandering. As ususal. LOL

 

And John, Huh? Are you posting something on every forum? I saw your forum posting. I'm not sure how to respond. I'm thinking before I type his time.

[jxsq]

The loooong thread has said it all. It is a BIG problem for all of us.

 

I think one way to solve this is to have a different *default* filter, in which only good member's rating are being counted.

 

Just as an example, good member can be defined as

1. has been with photo.net for at least x months, and

2. his rating curve is not too far to nomolized curve as all other good members. and

3. himself have number of photos and the ratings he received is above, say, average.

[vertigoclimb]

"But the complaint level has remained constant for the 3 years I've been working on the site, and the nature of the complaints has basically stayed the same."

 

So, only a set number of people have the time and personality traits to air their grievances at any given time. This very consisitency seems to show a problem.

 

The fact that the members have increased 500% is due to marketing tactics and I think, the fact that membership is optionally free.

 

Why not post a survey on the site to get real input from members and put this debate to rest? Is there a fear that the survey would come out in a way the shows the more work is needed to improve? Why not post one? It's easy and would be enlightening to everyone involved. I'd be happy to do the work of throwing a simple input form together to gather this information for you and I'm sure others here would be too.

 

A lot companies (especially those who work with the public) have some kind of similar survey in place.

[charlotte]

definately think that only subscribing members should be allowed to rate - surely this would get rid of most of the bogus raters??

[laurencewahlberg]

Quite an interesting forum topic, obviously keeps many otherwise gainfully employed peoples stimulated. Stick to your guns Brian I honestly doubt that the aforementioned survey would do anything but waste your time more. PN is a great site and low ratings add to the controversy and entertainment value of the site. more members, more ratings, more reality.

[mark_j_james]

Did anyone after reading this whole thread, then look again at the subject from the intitial post, as this whole thread seems to echo the original statement...

 

The problem seemed to be that people were upset about robo raters. I dont blame them, BUT Brian has explained that most of these ratings are automaticaly deleted in anycase with out any intervention from him. No Problem. It just doesnt happen immediatly, but after a little while, once the system has evaluated the problem.

 

The abuse reporting system works very well in my opinion. The few times that I have had to use it Brian has investigated my complaints quickly and responded sensibly. What more can you ask?

 

Yes I realise that I dont support Photo.Net financially at this time. But by not allowing people to rate just because they dont support the site finanically would hinder the site more in the long run. Im sure that more then a few people have utilized the site for a while, become hooked and then signed up. If you restricted peoples ability to rate just because they didnt subscribe would substatially drop the number of ratings receieved, as well as the amount of comments. On my latest image that I uploaded 2/3'rds of the comments were from people who dont subscribe, as well as over half the ratings.

 

I can only offer this advice: If you want real feed back on your images from people you feel you can trust, join your local club and deal with real people! Any system that is as anonymous is open to abuse.

 

Brian, Thanks on running a fantastic site.

 

 

Mark