Film Holders and such things

[sknowles]

I'm still exploring the equipment for my 4x5 system. Another question

while looking at film at the local pro shop. What are people's

experience with film holders? Initially I thought to start with the

traditional 2 sheet film holders to give myself flexibility while

learning. I haven't grasped the whole concept of quick readyloads

yet, how the work and such stuff. Are they things you learn when you

use them?

 

On another note, I was informed that the Layton L-45A will drop in

price as they're planning a larger production run, hopefully in the

mid-upper $3,000 range. After all the reviews I decided on this

camera as my first and (planned) only 4x5. Now I'll have money for

another lens.

 

Lens are still in review (to order/buy near the completion of the

camera). To date, they are 120mm, 150mm, and 300mm initially with a

75/90mm and 480mm lenses later. It's about the fourth iteration,

almost full circle, but it's likely to change as I actually use them.

 

Thanks, Scott.

[troyammons]

Film holders are a PIA, but there is just not that many films available in quickloads. Also quick loads are about $3 per shot just for the film. I recently bought 100 sheets of E100s for $65. That would have cost me $300 + in quickloads, but quick loads are convenient.

 

If you want to try quickloads, buy a used holder and a pack of 20 and go for it. I keep a couple of packs in the freezer. Its nice if you only want to take 1 or 2 quick shots and drop them of at the lab, since you don't have to mess with loading them.

 

If you want to try the normal film holder setup, buy a changing tent and go for it. If you plan to shoot seriously you need about 20-30 holders. I like the fidelity elite film holders with the plastic dark slides the best. One thing I found, is if you shoot more than one type of film, come up with a good system for keeping track of whats what.

 

Not sure about the layton, but its awfully expensive. How about a Sinar, swiss arca or canham. I bought my F1 for $600. I would still like something smaller though, like maybe the swiss arca field camera.

 

Lenses - Hmmm.

 

I recently took a photo trip and i used my Rodenstock sinorar 150mm MC lens 90% of the time shooting 120 4x5 photos over a week. Took 2 shots with my 300mm and 10 with my 90mm. That middle range lens is the first one to buy. Wait on the others. Actually i could live with just a 90 and 150 lens.

 

My 150 is very sharp and it was only about $400. I recently sold my 300mm lens, just because I never used it but it was super sharp. It was a caltar 300mm. Basically a Rodenstock made for Calumet. Its massive.

 

There are a lot of other good normal to long lenses out there like Nikon's, Fuji's etc.

 

After trying a few 90mm lenses including a modern Rodenstock Grandagon MC, IMO go for a Nikon for the 90. It seems to be one of the best.

 

I usually check these lens test charts first and post a sharpness question before diving into used LF lenses.

 

http://www.brucebarrett.com/large_format/LF_Lens_Coverage.html

 

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html

 

If you want to spend big $ you could always go for the newer Schneider lenses.

 

For me and I assume a lot of other people, my biggest problems seem to be film flatness. The only option I know of is the Sinar $500 tacky film holder.

[ellis_vener_photography]

I'd go with a 90mm over a 120mm lens or a 180mm instead of a 150mm

 

I also don't see that you have a budget for a Polaroid 545i back. That will pay for itself

almost immediately.

 

Quickload and readyload holders work similarly to a Poloroid 545

holder: The back goes into the camera like a regular film holder but instead of pullingthe

darkslide, shooting , putting the darkslide back in, removingthe holder, flipping it, ans

doing the routine withthe second sheet the Fuji Quickload or Kodak Readyload holder goes

in to the camera back you load a packet of film, pull the jacket of the packet up to the stop

point (clearly marked), expose, slide the jacket back in, hitthe release and pul lthe packet

aout and load the second one. The three huge advantages of either the Kodak or the Fuji

sytem are: no dust gets in your film (Fuji & Kodak load the packackets in dust free clean

rooms); the time savings (3 ways: shooting: the Quickload system is much faster than two

sided holders to use -- and yes speed when shooting sometimes really really matters; in

non production time: no cleaning, loading, unloading, recleaning & reloading the

holders ; and in post production: the need to "spot" clean defects on the negative or

trnasparency zthe image in either a conventional or digital

darkroom are minimized ; and in weight saved.

 

The avantage of regular holders is that there are more emulsions available and there are

no

ISo 400 films in Quickload or readyload form.

[edward_kimball]

Hi Scott,

 

I use traditional film holders and load in a changing bag. This way film is cheaper and there are more choices. I would like to add a polaroid holder for checking exposure. I haven't had any problems using the traditional holders and I am not a "dust nazi". A reasonable amount of care will keep dust off the film.

 

As for cameras, as a first camera I would buy a Shen Hao if I were you. It costs about $600 and you can get most of your money back if you want to trade up or sell your stuff off.

[michael_briggs2]

My advice is that 120 and 150 mm are too close to make much sense to have both lenses in your kit. The views that they give will be very similar and it doesn't make much sense to carry both (or spend for both). I like a spacing of at least a factor of 1.5, up to a factor of 1.7. The spacing can be a bit finer at the wide end. Obviously, if the spacing is too far, you will wish for an intermediate view. If the spacing is too close, you will end up with alot of lenses to carry.

 

My kit has converged to 72 / 110 / 180 / 270 / 450. For several years I only used 180 and didn't feel a pressing need for additional lenses. The 180 is my most used lens, followed by the 110 -- normal, and moderate wide.

[johnmarkpainter]

Scott,

 

What everybody else said :)

 

The Lenses you need will be become VERY obvious in the first 30 minutes of shooting. I

am carrying a 65, 90 and 150.

 

A 65 and a 90 are VERY different. Not so with a 120 and 150.

 

jmp

[robert_dermer]

I'd like to second (or third) the Polaroid 545 back as an excellent learning tool as you work on understanding the camera movements. The Polaroid film seems a bit expensive but it makes up for that in savings on ruined/unusable film and wasted time.

[kipling]

I'd opt for a 90, 150 and a 210mm, I think those three will cover most anything. As far as

sharpness is concerned, film flatness, correct camera movements and scanning or printing

are probably more critical sharpness issues to look at than the difference between a newer

Nikkor, Schneider or Rodenstock lens. They're are all very sharp on a 4x5 inch neg.<p>

I don't mind loading film holders, it's relatively easy and fast to do with a little practice

and much less expensive than ready-loads. Keep your equipment clean and use a canned

air duster on your holders before loading and you won't have a problem with dust.

[gene m]

Film holders = dust.

[brian_ellis16]

The instructions for using Readyloads come with each pack, it's very simple and once you use a couple envelopes you won't need to refer to the instructions. I don't find film holders to be a pain but changing bags are. If you don't have a bathroom, closet, or room that can be darkened at least at night for loading holders I'd forget it and stick with Readyloads or Quickloads rather than using a changing bag. If you can afford the Layton camera as your first camera the added cost of Readyloads/Quickloads shouldn't be a problem.

 

IMHO buying that camera and those lenses as your first large format equipment isn't the best way to proceed. Relatively few people who have been doing large format for more than say five years are still using their first camera as their primary camera. It's difficult to decide which features are important and which aren't, which things you will like and which you will dislike, on the basis of reviews and spec sheets. You really need to use a large format camera for a while to see what things are important to you and what aren't. And many people find that they photograph differently with a large format camera than they did with smaller cameras and so end up not using the lenses they initially thought they would use.

 

My suggestion (which I realize you didn't ask for) would be to buy a more basic or more "standard" camera and to go a little slower both with the expense of the first camera and also with the number of lenses you initially buy. Apart from that, I agree with others who have said 120 and 150 are too close together to be a really useful combination. FWIW a more common three lens set is 90, 150 (or 210) and 300 (or 360).

[harry_martin]

That Layton L-45A is a great looking camera! Why don't you let your first lens be that , I think from memory, new Cooke Triple convertible lens from England? View Camera magazine did several articles on it.

[Sandeha Lynch]

Readyloads=money. So it's money or dust ... I'm using film holders for b&w that I process myself, but for color (given the cost of slide film!) I'm planning on a Readyload pack.

[michael_briggs2]

<p>The new Cooke Triple Convertible lens (<a href="http://www.cookeoptics.com/cooke.nsf/52614d4325c1735a85256ee7005e8edb/7fe9d6d60bdcf96a85256e8600546ed2?OpenDocument">www.cookeoptics.com</a>) is intended for use with the 8x10 format. The focal lengths are 645, 476 and 311 mm. It wouldn't be the best choice for 4x5.</p>

 

<p>I use filmholders and rarely have problems with dust. More important to me than the cost factor is the greater choice of films. Dust prevention requires being meticulous about cleaning the holders, but this isn't time consuming. Before removing a darkslide I always brush off the darkslide so as not to pull dust into the light trap. This includes in the field when taking photographs. I brush off the inside of the holder and both sides of the darkslide before loading. I use Kinetronics (<a href="http://www.kinetronics.com/">http://www.kinetronics.com/</a>) anti-static brushes. I start with new holders because some used holders are dust bombs. I prefer not to use a changing bag or tent because it increases the chance of dust.</p>

[harry_martin]

Michael

Thanks for the info and link. It is a beautiful lens!!! Maybe... s s someday? Harry

[ken_schroeder]

Film holders + sloppy technique = dust.

 

film holders + careful technique = minimal dust

 

I have used Fidelity Elite holders for years with very good results. Start with half a dozen new holders. Take the time to learn how to properly clean and load them. (I use a small handheld Hoover vacuum every time I reload.) It takes less time to vacuum than to spot prints.

 

For the record, I would start with a 210 or 200 lens only. The larger image magnification on the groundglass (compared with the difficult to see 90) makes it easier to learn how to use the camera. A second lens would be a 135 or 150. I believe the learning process happens faster with the smplicity of just one lens. Polaroid is expensive, but useful in learning.

[ken_schroeder]

ps...I would feel very comfortable with Michael Briggs' 180 only recommendation. The 180 and 210 are quite close.

[robertbrown]

I have a Tachihara 4x5 (can be bought new or in almost new condition from Midwest Photo for $500 or less): it's a nice, light, attractive wooden camera, though it's not all that sturdy. I have a Calumet c-1 8x10 and that is sturdy. For lenses, I have a 90mm, 135mm, and 240mm lenses--that pretty much covers the gamut for me. Sometimes I wish I had some extra bellows to shoot macro and/or close up. I don't use ready loads, mostly because I'm cheap. I have a darkroom and haven't had too much trouble with dust. I like my polaroid back a lot, both for test shots and polaroid transfers. I'd start out with an inexpensive 4x5, one good lens, 5 or 10 film holders and a polaroid back, then see how much you enjoy large format photography. You can always buy more gear later.