Not ANOTHER Ratings and Critique Comment

[melody1]

Ok, this might get a bit lengthy: but before you start frothing at

the mouth and belittling me for this post, read the whole thing

first.

I subscribed to photo.net after a few weeks of encouragement and

great (but not necessarily positive) comments. Shortly after my

subscription, I posted about a lack of criticism due to people (what

I felt was thoughtlessly) rating, and experienced the wrath of

photo.net veterans. Suprisingly, under all of the insults and "who

does she think she is, the newbie?!" comments, I found some people

who were very effective at constructive criticism. For a while, I

found a niche of encouraging and photographers, but they have since

dissappeared.

I took two classes (as suggested) and am very grateful that I did. I

feel I have matured as a photographer, and found my passion. I

thought this was such a passion, I want to pursue it as a career

(portrait photography). I have books, I've had classes, I have a

(old, used) SLR (a long way from the POS digital that thankfully

broke), and I have rolls and rolls of negatives as well as hours and

hours of experience in the darkroom.

Now the problem has changed. Instead of a lack of comments, I find

the majority of comments lacking in substance. I also find the

majority of the community only experienced in digital, swept away by

overly saturated colors and extreme photoshop effects. As a side

note, I enjoy photoshop as much as the next, only I feel my work in

photoshop (aside from techniques I know I am capable of performing in

the darkroom) is not really photography. Art, perhaps; but

photography, no.

My subscription ends in January. I find myself at a crossroads. I

love the community, and I have learned a great deal from all of the

talented photographers here. On the other hand, I don't feel that I

am benefitting from this site as I was before. Im order to solicit

ratings and comments, I have to post shots of nude women, particulary

in erotic positions. (Not that I dislike nude portraiture, I feel I

have a so much to learn and try in the area, but my other work should

solicit as much, if not more criticism)

Where are the film photographers? I know they are out there. I know

there are film fanatics - people that swear by solid film negatives,

and that enjoy the smell of stop bath (maybe not fixer). How do I

find them, and how do I dodge the suburbia dad who bought himself a

point and shoot, 4 mega pixel digital camera and Adobe Photoshop and

considers himself an expert photographer? I am trying to get away

from people who know aperature as an option in one of the

subcategories of their menu button, and who view an on camera flash

as the solution to any and all poor lighting situations. (I don't

own a flash by the way - I use available light only)

At the beginning of this post, it was a different question. How can

I get more constructive critism? (And don't say critique without

ratings - tried it. Hasn't been effective) Now, at the end of my

post, my question has changed. Where do I find film photographers?

Calling black and white film photographers. How can I find those

that will be the most beneficial to me?

[beepy]

Wow - let me open a bottle of wine and settle down to read this - be right back...

[erin.e]

Oh dear Melody, this is a very wide ranging photography site and you apparently have just been slumming on your first year. :-)

 

Now that you feel a need to find a few film photographers that know a bit about film, and black and white at that, I suggest that you start to frequent the Three Black and White Forums on photonet.

 

 

B&W Photography- Film and processing

 

 

B&W Photography- Printing and Finishing

 

 

B&W Photography- Alternative processes

 

 

There are many very knowledgeable and very polite photographers on those well moderated forums that you can soak up knowledge from.

 

There are also many very experienced heplful photographers that use negs, trannies, black and white, and also digital and have a dearth of knowledge, they are spread throughout the site forums.

 

Subscribe again, Its like a treasure hunt here, gems don't just jump up and say "Here I am!" you have to dig a bit to find them. But, rest assured they do exist here.

 

I have given you 3 pointers where some are. Best of luck.

[kkjuhy]

Melody, a lenghty response for you (please read all the way :-) )

 

 

I rarely, if ever (at least not on photo.net), critique photo's for a couple of reasons:

 

- I don't like the photo.net interface for selecting and viewing photo's.

 

- If I browse trough "Galery-Top Photo's" at least of 80% of what I see are the standard "pretty post card" images, most of them I still have a hard time reproducing though :-) (I will be flamed to death for this, so be it), where the "100.000st light ray in Antelope Canyon" (however magnificent) still gets a "7" for originality. In my opinion this alone makes rating useless.

 

- Giving meaningfull comment is extremely difficult. I don't think I am able to do very much. (I can't even understand why some things are in a museum or art gallery...). Can you?

 

- There are simply way to many photographs on this planet begging for rating/critique.

 

- The many outcries from people who have scored a bad rating (with nonsens suggestions as "there should be no rating possible below 4" or whatever). So everybody is very politically correct (positive feedback only) and gives 6-es and 7s for the most uninspiring stuff.

 

- Yup, most of the votes go for oversaturated stuff, and if you try the "top photos ever based on originality" view, you will see mostly photoshop manipulations and funny things. Is this Originality? I define that as seeing something nobody else has seen/noticed or sees something in a totally different manner. This of course depends on how much you have seen. Probably there still are people who have never seen a "sun ray in Antelope Canyon"...

 

 

So what can you do (partially what am I doing?):

 

- join a photo club

 

- go on another course but at an art centre

 

- go to the "wilder" sites (or at least sites that don't hide non-top

photos), try www.photosig.com (category portraits), www.fredmiranda.com portrait forum or maybe even something like www.deviantart.com.

I'm sure that if you search there will be sites/groups dedicated to B&W chemical darkroom film portrait enthousiasts.

 

- browse often trough the thumbnails and try to get in touch with someone whose work you particularly like and keep mutual critiques, encouragement and inspiration out of photo.net.

 

- do not underestimate the "suburban dads with a 4 Mpixel P&S and photoshop"... e.g. there are a couple of Canon A80 (Yup, 4MPixel P&S)images by someone called something like "szeneca szenaca" here on photo.net which I like very much... but you might totally disagree. There are also some totally clueless people with camera equipment worth the equivalent of a car (or more)... owning a Leica does not make one a HCB...althoug some really think so (see the W/NW postings in the Leica forum...).

 

- Also, being extremely capable in a chemical darkroom does not make one a great photographer, nor does refusing to use a flash does, nor does using black-and-white...

 

- subscribe to a black and white photo magazine (forgot the name, there is an excellent one out there).

 

 

Good luck on your quest!

 

(sorry, I do colour slides and digital, some portrait so I personally can't help you)

 

(And before everybody angrily jumps to my portfolio: I certainly do not consider myself very creative nor a top photographer, I am also looking for inspiration and hints to develop myself as photograper).

[davecollopy]

There are a lot of us B&W phtgrs here. Check the B&W forums, Classic Camera forum. As far as dodging the digital suburban dad on images you request a critique, you can't. What you need to do instead is place the criticism and ratings you recieve into proper perspective. For instance yesterday I recieved a 1/1 on one of my images. After checking the stats of this individual I noticed he awarded 1/1 to almost half of the images he rated. So I was left to conclude that 1/1 meant he thought my image was alright but he didn't think it was great.

 

The TRP's here are not everybody's cup of tea. If they are not yours then you should feel no need to emulate them. IMO Photo.Net TRP pages remind me of the poster selection in a Spencers Gift c.1977. OTOH some real gems can be found here. I have the most luck browsing other phtgrs favorites folders. There are a lot of valuable resources here @ PN, and there is a lot of noise. It's up to you to seperate the two and make the most of it.

[tholte]

Erin and Karel gave you some good advice and I will throw in my two cents worth. Unless you are a genius, becoming a good photographer is a long and arduous process. Most give up before they achieve their potential because they don't have the tenacity, patience and willingness to suffer the many setbacks that come with trying to get better. You are going to have a difficult time improving because you are in the "making excuses mode"; not enough photographers do B&W, only nudes get comments, not enough comments, only use natural light, don't like digital, digital is not photography etc., etc. You are limiting your growth by having all these silly rules about what you won't do. This is my story and I am sticking to it.

[._._z]

This is a question about growing as a photographer and is not a site feedback question.

You're better off asking specific questions in relevant forums, and contacting people

whose opinions you've found to be valuable.

 

It is also a rant about film and of alleged abuse by anonymous individuals. For that

nonsense I offer no pity at all.

[niranjn]

If you want to learn, ask questions in the appropriate forums. I don't see any of that in your PN history. If you want to lurk and listen, again, there are fairly informative forums with chock full of very good photographers. If you want to look at good photos, W/NW threads usually have some.

 

In a year, you have offered 58 comments, most of which on your own photographs. You seem to expect to receive a lot more than you offer. Why?

 

You want to know "how can I find those that will be the most beneficial to me". Take a class; join a club; pay for critique; be a student. This is a LARGE community. You will not get what you want, here. People will pay attention to you only if you are really talented or show good potential. Even then, a high amount of participation from your side is necessary.

 

The $25 subscription renewal decision seems to be weighing strongly on you. If $25 means so much to you, you should think more before you knock down digital photography.

 

Why the rant?

[brncr6]

All I can afford at this time is what I got and I try to do the best that I can, so if that bothers you that I have a 4 megapix, please do dodge me.

[melody1]

I am NOT knocking down digital. I started with a digital POS ( Nikon coolpix 2500) and know the difference between the comtnrol over the image I had then, and the control I have now. I think digital is practical, and I plan on using it. However, digital is EASY. Very easy. Film, on the otherhand, is not. I feel the a photographer with film experience will be more beneficial to me as a film photographer.

I was there. I only did digital. For some reason, I itched to try my hand at film, and buying a film slr was the best thing I did all year.

Don't tell me to take class - I have taken the two (and only two) classes at my college. Anyone jwho has followed my work from now to then would probably agree. I HAVE matured as a photographer. However, telling me repeatedly to take a class, or join a photogroup tells me one of two things:

You either 1) didn't bother to read the whole post, or 2) while reading, misunderstood.

I live in Russellville, Arkansas aka Small Town, USA. If you can find me an arts center with photography courses to enroll in...

For those that misunderstood - I am a member of a campus photo-group. However, most of the members have less experience and show a lack of talent. The most constructive critiques I recieved were in an advanced photography class. That class is over.

I want to continue to grow as a photographer. I am not in an excusees mode. What I posted above about the nude photography is true. I posted a picture and within two hours it have elicited 27 ratings and 2 comments. I posted a portrait that was better composed, better lighting, and more interesting that the nude portrait I shot and it recieved 10 ratings in 24 hours. Call it an excuse if you will, it looks like the plain facts to me.

No, I have not posted in the appropriate forums. I am a busy college student for one, but more importantly, I was growing and learning in my class and have had ample comments and criticism throughout the semester. The semester is over folks. I took the only two classes offered.

I tried my hand at commenting on others photos a long time ago and was knocked down for it. Now, with more experience, and more knowledge on the matter, I haven't started.

Niranjn - 25 dollars is a large matter. Like I have stressed before, I am a college student. 25 dollars goes a long way in ramen noodles and baked potatoes.

Tim Holt - I did not (didn't even insinuate) that digital is not photography. I said I do not consider a picture that has undergone severe photoshop reconstruction photography. All of those 'digital only' photographers can rest their ruffled feathers and relax. I think that there is more skill and talent involved in taking a good negative and a good print in the darkroom than taking a mediocre picture on a digital camera and using some blown out special effects.

With that being said - I am sure there are points I have not addressed, and I thank all of you for contributing. Now that I have had your attention, can I direct it to my portfolio please... (just kidding :P)

[tboehrer]

"We all have dreams. But in order to make dreams come into reality, it takes an awful lot of determination, dedication, self-discipline, and effort." - Jesse Owens

 

Sorry for my simplistic answer. But you're 20 (21?). You have time. Hang in there. Just consider how much effort photographers had to make prior to the Internet and 8 bazillion books.

[WJT]

Hi Melody. When I was very young a favorite uncle told me that a person should consider himself very lucky if he could count the number of his friends on one hand. If you want comments (helpful comments, that is) on PhotoNet, you need to make some friends who will be honest with you. I am not talking about creating "mate raters", but real friends. All you need are two or three who will tell you what they honestly think of your photography. You establish a group of friends by visiting other photographer's pages and offering intelligent and honest but tactful remarks on their work. It is just like school; you get out of it what you put into it.<p>

 

But I took a look at your folder and discovered a bit of a conundrum. Over the past year, you commented only about 58 times, and it would seem that about forty percent of those were replies on your own photographs. This will not get you what you need.<p>

 

In my experience I have found, not surprisingly, that most people do not like to be insulted (some do, but I prefer not to associate with them). I shoot primarily MF film, both color and monochrome, but I also shoot some digital. They both have their place in the art we seek. Telling someone that they are a buffoon because they use a digicam is juvenile at best. Revisiting the above mentioned conundrum, I saw that much of your work was done with a Coolpix, wasn't it? About 4000 photographs, didn't you say?<p>

 

Tim Holte is one of the better photographers on this site. His advice against making excuses and limiting onself is some of the best I have heard here. You use the tools that you need: flashes, filters, and Photoshop included. If you prefer not to use them, that is fine, but please do not belittle those that do.<p>

 

By the way, I could not find the erotic nudes you mentioned. Regards.

[chiranjeeb]

Hi Melody,

 

If I am correct, you are thinking of photo.net as a source of constructive criticism for your work. In a huge site like this, it is very hard for an individual to get noticed and find good criticism. A good critic is probably as hard or harder to find as a good photographer. So don't give up yet. There used to be critique circles here in the site; if they are still alive, join them. There is another anonymous critique group whose name I forget right now, but it seemed like a very active group last time I looked. I am sorry for not providing the name, but somebody else can come forward with it. To sum up, you need to belong to a smaller group to get good criticism.

 

I have been a lurker/frequenter at photo.net almost since its inception (1995ish) and I have always learnt ton loads of things out here. The gallery and photo critique sections are relatively new additions and I don't use them much. I suck and I don't need somebody else to tell me about it :D. I have my own idea as for how my photographs should be and I can see that I have a long way to go. When I find that I am unable to progress on my own, I will seek out somebody to critique me. As for the $25, since you are a student you don't need to contribute it ---the site policy says so. I am a student myself, but I subscribe because I am grateful for the knowledge that photo.net provides me. Maybe you should save up your money and go to a photography workshop like the Santa Fe workshops (www.sfworkshop.com). When I have enough money, that's where I'll go. Meanwhile keep photographing ---we all have a lot to learn.

[tijean]

Well, if you respond to anyone offering you advice on your photos like you've responded to the folks giving you advice here, then I'm not surprised that you don't get many people clamoring for the chance to help you a second time. Why exactly is your question? I'm sorry that you feel your method is better than the next guy's, that the people around you are untalented bafoons, or that boo hoo, you're a student. You are in excuse mode, and I say that as someone working full time, going to school full time (not a photo major), and wrist deep in dektol in the half of my kitchen that serves as a darkroom. You think digital is easy. I think pictures of ones own eyes nauseate me almost as much a photos of domestic cats no matter what they are taken with. If you are going to be tactless, then why should I bother being polite and holding <i>my</i> tongue? The difference is that I don't feel that anything I deem inferior should be banished from the planet. Drop the condescending attitude and you may have better results. The Hasselblad that I use to work with was a hundred times easier to use than my old Nikon Coolpix 4500, and I?m sure that you?re your point and shoot is easier to use than my Zorki 4. It?s a terrible argument based on generalizations based on inexperience and ignorance. Fine, you?re learning. But until you know everything (haha), lay off the declarations. Great, you have opinions. Recognize them as opinions, please, and don?t throw a hissy fit when people don?t share them. You?re better than everyone else. That?s apparent in your tone. What would you need with us? I am sorry, and maybe this post (or entire account) will be deleted very quickly, but maybe you should listen to all of the helpful advice that has been posted instead of dismissing it. You complain that nobody comments on your photos, but you don't comment on other people's, because last time you tried you were ridiculed. We what in the holy heck do you think you are doing to doing to the people who gave you advice on this very thread? Do you think you are encouraging an open and educational environment, or do you think that you are providing the same kind of ridicule that made you stop commenting? I don't care how much romen you are trading for it, your contribution only shows your appreciation of and support for pnet. What is doesn't do is buy you the time and expertise of photographers to give you advice and critique your work. It is up to you to network and produce work that people want to comment on. Yes, those nudes may have received more attention, because nudes do receive more attention. So? Is that the reason that your other work is not having attention heaped upon it? Nope. Take no comments and few ratings as it's own message, look at those photos, and figure out yourself, with that invaluable feedback (or lack of) being your hint that something needs to be improved.

<br><br>

Now, did you have a question or did you just want to tell everyone how stupid they are?

<br><br>

(Note to Bob: the delete key is calling. Sorry, but it was post or bust a vein.)

[cghubbell]

Couldn't help but ask why you feel digital photographers couldn't help you advance? You mention avoiding suburbia Dads, but isn't it really that you need to identify with those who are at your level? I'm actually really interested in the work of film photographers because expanding my horizons increases the chances of finding inspiration, even though I'm 100% digital.

 

The exposure gamut of digital is extremely challenging to work within, much like slide film as I'm told. The composition and inspiration challenges faced by film photogs and digital photogs don't differ either.

 

I respect and identify with your frustration, but I think you'll find that you just need to stick it out. Keep posting your work. Keep critiquing other's work. If you find images that you deem "suburban Dad" then skip 'em and go on to shots you enjoy. Find a few photographers whose work you respect, and critique their images. I've been spending more time looking through interesting people's portfolios than the critique forum, and found more inspiration than I could even find outlet for.

 

Don't give up on P.N. Instead, let your use of it evolve.

[sef1664877429]

Did you ever think that maybe one of this site's biggest flaws is also one of its greatest strengths, at least as far as beginners are concerned? Getting anything useful out of this place takes time and patience, and what is one of the most useful skills in photography( o.k., apart from being able to see!)? That little 'p' word does make the whole experience more fun, and it is supposed to be fun, isn't it? You'll learn more by examining other people's work and methods than you will from comments on your own work. When you start to comment on other people's photo's, don't automatically go into critique mode. Give the photo a little time, don't start with what you don't like and do like, or with the technical details, start with the emotion, does this photo take you anywhere, memories good or bad, and all the other stuff blah blah blah... mmm, emotional response to technical, technical to emotional, the order may influence your eventual opinion, but that's beyond my limited knowledge. I'm rambling, anyway... understand how other people's photo's work, and you'll start to understand your own.

 

So photo.net can basically teach you other skills you didn't necessarily realise you needed... a bit of a personality test. Do you think you'll pass?

[bens]

. . . and there you have it Melody! you gotta chart your own course, not knock those on their own courses if you can help it, look for solutions more than problems, and enjoy the journey. as a parent with a multi-mega-pixel digital (my second), i can assure you you will get here some day if you are lucky. but i was a student once, used to save pennies, roll them, then take the rolls to the movie theater to see a film. looking back, i could always squeeze 25 bucks out in a few months. if i was student in a small town with a year or two under my belt on this site, i'd find a way to continue to subscribe. but if i didn't, there are plenty of other sites to learn from. but melody, life is too short to get dwell too long on the grumblings -- go shoot some pictures -- you pick the medium -- better yet, go spend some time with your loved ones, then go shoot some pictures. happy holidays.

[Mike Marcotte]

I suggest you read Mr. Holte's comment over & over again until you get it. Lots of pictures of Melody in your portfolio. I would suggest a book to you if you haven't already seen it. Tom Ang's "Tao of Photography".

[meddler]

I don't know how people get so many critiques. My own approach which is yielding modest dividends is to put anyone who give me a critique into my interesting list and to make sure I give them a critique back when I next see them submit something. Im still not getting the sorts of critiques I would like, but I expect I will get there in the end. And the other thing I do, is try to critique new people too.

 

As for what these other guys said about excuse mode. Im afraid they are right. Think about the title for your first album.

 

"Digital (and therefore thoughtlessly composed and shot) Photos"

 

I don't know how a digital camera can compose and shoot pictures on its own. It only the photographer who can be thoughtless. Digital is a great tool for getting along that learning curve. And after you have paid out for the camera its free!

 

At the end of the day the most important thing is the image. Its doesn't matter what type of sensor was used to capture it or even how much thought went into it. A good photo is a good photo regardless.

 

I'll put you in my interesting list and give you some critiques when you post new pictures. Perhaps you can do the same for me?

 

BTW, I had a look at some of your comments, I think you should use a little unsharp mask on your scans to stop people focussing on that aspect of your photos.

[john falkenstine]

Always a good move to read back messages to yourself BEFORE you post them and see how often the "I" word is being used.....

[meddler]

John, thanks, thats good feedback for me and other posters like me. You won't catch me using that word again. You can take it from me.

 

:)

[john falkenstine]

BTW NOT meant to come across sounding mean like it did. It was a compositional suggestion that often forces the writer to put his or her thoughts in a more interesting context.

[knicki____]

you have advice galore here, I suggest heed it.

 

Any photographer can be beneficial on the photography road as each, no matter what level, has their own experiences and eye.

 

I wouldnt worry about the suburbia dads' its the soccer moms you should look out for. And on that little bit- isnt it nice that you are so willing to teach those who have come after you as much as you are wanting those before you to teach you. You certainly picked the wrong forum.

 

btw- John no worries about me using the I word... since its all about ME. (had to-couldnt resist)

 

Knicki

[beepy]

Sniff... I'm sorry Melody, but I really only talk to people who use real cameras (that is,

8x10" film or bigger). It's just the way it is.

<p>

No - wait - I'm a suburban Dad! Is that an SUV in my driveway? No - simply a bad dream.

<p>

Ya know, Melody. I like your photos. Cool stuff, fresh, promise.

<p>

Paused to clean some Polaroid 85 negs out of a Holga camera I shot today - was that what

you meant by film?

Also - I've moved on from wine to sake - it helps it all make more sense.

<p>

So, some constructive suggestions.

<p>

First, have you really really studied the work of other photographers and read their

writings on what they thought they were doing?

<p>

Second, have you studied art criticism and photographic criticism to (a) realize that

perhaps what the artist/photogrpaher intended is often besides the point? (A good quick

read I found helpful was <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/

0767411862/002-0135295-0312836?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance">this book</a>.

Well, I quite liked <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/

0813003032/qid=1103790774/sr=8-6/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i6_xgl14/002-0135295

-0312836?v=glance&s=books&n=507846">this book</a> also.) (b) Develop your own

critiquing skills and critique your own images. Don't underestimate the study of art

(painting and sculpture etc.) as a basis for understanding and making images.

<p>

Third - how many photographs - not on the web - but real master images in museums

and such have you carefully studied? God - the web makes me want to scream - books

make me want to whimper - when I see the original prints and see how beautiful they are.

<p>

Fourth - do you have a portfolio? A selected, focused body of work (and I don't mean on

the web) - of say 12 - 24 prints that reflect a theme, a style a coherent message? No? Why

not? What is stopping you? Read the <a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/

columns/briots_view.shtml">Aesthetics and Photography</a> articles here -

concentrating on <a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/portfolio

-8.shtml">the article on portfolios</a>. Why, you may ask?

<p>

Because fifth, you gotta invest some sweat into this and with a portfolio - regardless of

your means or location - you can approach perhaps a gallery, or better yet an established

photographer you admire (by sending them your portfolio - with a self-addressed

stamped return package) and ask them to critique your photos and give you feedback. I

am studying one-on-one with three established photographers - and they are extremely

demanding (and I am exceedingly dense) - but the other day, when I was talking to one he

mentioned that he had received a portfolio from a college student and she had asked for

critique and direction - he had a phone call with her later that day. It turns out this is not

uncommon at all - and *free*. (I suspect if you approach it with the right attitude that is).

<p>

You have so many paths and opportunities in front of you. Why the whining? Get to work.

<p>

Gotta go dry my negs. And finish my sake.

<p>

Oh yeah - paragraphs are really useful - try to use them.

[._._z]

<i><blockquote> No, I have not posted in the appropriate forums.

</blockquote> </i><p>

 

 

So start doing so, or your posts (and threads) will most likely be deleted as being off-

topic.