The Zeiss attack - what does it mean for Leica?

[marbing]

For current Leica M owners (who would be not likely to rush out to pick up this new body anyway), I see the addition of some new lenses in a compatible mount to be good news. If the prices are more affordable and the quality exceptional then I see more people getting more flexible use out of their Leicas because they can fill in some gaps in their lens arsenal. Sure there are overlaps and focal length duplications in the new Zeiss offerings but they might be worth serious consideration to some for whom Leica optics are too expensive. maybe Leica will respond to the whole thing by reducing thier prices and then everyone could benefit.

[tommy_baker]

The site doesnt say which of the lenses in the line are made in Japan and

Germany respectively. Not surprising I guess.

 

No fast lenses, so nothing really great here. The 35/2 looked interesting but

still heavier than my 35-pre. The camera looks bulky, the M is still sexier IMO.

 

If this had been a digitial M mount release than I would have been impressed.

 

I will reserve judgement till I see the images from these lenses.. thats what

really counts. If its the same clinical modern lenses than.. so what. Nothing to

write home about.

[stuart_richardson]

As Tommy said, the proof will be in the pudding. If the camera is built like its Cosina

cousins, it will probably not supplant the Leica in many people's minds. IF the viewfinder is

truly 30% brighter than the best out there (as it stated in the press release), IF the lenses

are "better" than all the other lenses offered (keeping in mind that MTF is not the sole

measure of a lens) and IF the camera can duplicate the superior haptics of the Leicas

(handling, solid feel, quiet shutter etc), then things will get interesting. In the mean time it

is just nice to know that people are still working on making rangefinders. <P>And by the

way, I doubt that Leica was caught completely aware on this. I am sure that they new what

was coming and have probably been thinking of ways to deal with it for awhile.

[vincent_jacques]

Leica prepares a counter-offensive!!!! Beware!

 

 

Leica production managers have been spotted in Kenyia, India and Brasil, on the tracks of some extremelly rare snake skins...

Rumours has it they are also bulk buying existing stocks of ivory...

[frank_reidelbach]

See the 2.8/25 spec and compare with Elmarit-M Asph. 2.8/24... and compare the 2/35 to Summicron-M Asph... could be world class lenses both... :-)

[larrybc]

Kevin Mendenhall , sep 28, 2004; 03:04 p.m. <br>

<p>

> I'm betting that<br>

> due to their philosophical bent, as well as economic<br>

> necessity, Leica is waiting until some stability is achieved<br>

> with regard to digital sensors before they enter the fray.<br>

> Likewise, I would imagine that when Leica does enter the<br>

> digital market, they won't do so until they are satisfied<br>

> that the sensor and their lenses work well together. </p>

 

<p>Being a Minolta SLR owner, I know what you're talking about. Minolta has waited longer than even Pentax and Olympus, before releasing a DSLR (later this month or November). I like to think that part of the reason for the delay is that they were waiting for sensor costs to come down, as well as the market demand to reach a point where sales of their first DSLR would be very profitable. They actually did release a couple of DSLRs back in 2000 or just before that but they didn't sell particularly well, and neither used the A lens mount found on their AF 35mm cameras. So that probably hurt them financially and made them wary about re-entering the fray.</p>

 

<p>Five years later, the digital SLR market has been cultivated by Canon and Nikon. It is no longer the early adopters who are buying DSLRs. The combination of a much broader digital infrastructure (cheap, photo quality inkjets and associated supplies, digital support at the neighbour 1-hour labs, the continuing expansion of the Internet and affordable broadband) and cheaper chip costs has resulted in the general public gaining experience with digital imaging and embracing it. Now Minolta has a much larger potential market for their first DSLR based on their A mount lenses, and they have the benefit of learning from other company's mistakes, successes, their own experiences in the non-DSLR digicam market, and cheaper, more advanced technology.</p>

 

<p>Yes, they lost some customers who were early adopters and switched over to Canikon for a DSLR solution. But before the rise of digital, their market was the amateur and semi-pro photographers. I really don't think they hurt themselves by waiting this long.</p>

 

<p>

I would say that Leica is in an even better position because its owners are far more loyal and until very recently, they had no serious competition. Now Cosina is eating into their lens sales and Epson has released their RD-1. But I still think Leica could wait another two years before releasing a digital RF and they would still sell every unit they could manufacture. Of course, I assuming it will be built to the very same high quality standards as their film cameras.</p>

 

<p>BTW, I'm not a rabid Leica owner. I don't own a Leica or Leica lenses. I couldn't justify the expense so I bought a Bessa R and some CV lenses. It is my objective opinion that Leica is doing the right thing, based on their resources and strengths. And it's too bad, because I will probably never end up buying a Leica. But then again, I'm not part of their market.</p>

 

<p>

Larry</p>

[Robin Smith]

What has happened to Contax SLRs - and what about the Contax G series, where are they going? Nowhere much I think. The Zeiss name is not a real assurance to anyone of world breaking success in small format photography. The Zeiss-Ikon looks very nice, but will it last and be around in 5 or 10 years? Zeiss managed to bankrupt Zeiss-Ikon and the original Voigtlander back in the early 1970s. Leica kept going. In ten years time digital sensors will be two a penny and totally uninteresting, so we all be back where we started except digital will be our recording medium not film. It will still be handling/lens quality/tradition/ergonomics/ etc. There is some virtue in Leica waiting until sensors/software gets cheaper.

[bob haight]

The Zeiss camera and lens are really a "non event" to both Leica and the world. People who want high quality will buy Leica products. The rangefinder crowd who shoots with non Leica is indeed a samll group. At this point any new film based product is really old news. When digital rangefinder bodies are easily available, I guess film will simply fade away. Leica's big challenge has been and is digital and how to participate. Hopefully, they will.

[Uhooru]

The new camera sounds good, but very many of its features such as the 1-2000 shutter smack of Cosina, ie their Copal shutter. 1-2000 is nice, I'd rather see the titanium shutter of the FE2 and 1-4000 if it could be made quietly. I've got a Bessa R and it works ok, but it really is a piece of junk. The meter is inaccurate, and it is quite loud. I had a VC attachement meter, it was only fairly accurate and fell apart quite rapidly. I don't believe they've redesigned their meters or their shutter, unless this electronic shutter is completely different. If Cosina builds this new camera, to me its like buying one of the Ford built Jaguars. It says Jaguar on the hood, but when you look underneath its just a Ford. The only interesting thing I can see is new Zeiss lenses. It seems the nature of RF useage is that these new camera's don't take sales away from Leica, they actually end up adding sales as more people can afford entry level range finders, they like them and eventually end up with a Leica, almost always. As someone said, I think the digital market is more of the challange for Leitz.

[melvin_bressler1]

I took a quick look at the Zeiss Ikon web site. Clearly their new camea is film

based. There are some 'gee whiz' features: flash synch to 1/125, top speed is

1/2000, and, it apparently takes all M mount lenses.

 

Still, Leitz has built the best rangefinder bodies forever, and the best lenses

forever. You just have to pay the price. I have a sneaking suspicion the Zeiss

Ikon is a CV in "Zeiss' clothing, with some feature upgrading.

 

But, like most members of this forum, I have older Leicas which, thankfully,

won't die. I know of no other camera company which can uniformly compare

to Lietz build quality or versatility.

 

The more immediate concern, IMHO is the continued shrinking of film choices.

 

Happy snaps.

[mike_elek]

What Ford did to Jaguar is bring it reliability. I've often read that Jaguar owners should expect to spend a couple of thousand dollars on engine work every few years. Even so, the Jaguar continued to sell well enough to survive.

 

> There are some bold statements in the FAQ section, like that the lenses will be affordable and better than other M mount lenses.

 

What did you expect them to say? That they'll be priced out of reach and that their performance will be worse than other lenses?

[frank_reidelbach]

"What has happened to Contax SLRs?" One of my best cameras, a 25 year old, all-black Contax 139 SLR. Two lenses, a 1.4/85 and a 2.8/180 Sonnar: razor-sharp, fast, compact, lightweight. They were not cheap, but (compared to used Leica) for me reasonable priced for the quality.

[socke]

IMHO Zeiss is in lenses and lens designs, at least the part we see, they do much more than lenses.

 

They must be absolutely disgusted with the way Kyocera handels Contax and burried Yashica. And it is only reasonable to team up with somebody who actualy wants to sell cameras to build a new line. Choosing the M-Mount is probably the best they could do for all of us. Those lenses should work on a Leica as well as Leica lenses on the Zeiss Ikon body.

 

I don't think they will harm Leicas business with this camera, but they'll probably earn my money as I won't spend 3,300 Euro on a M7 and another 800 for an Elmar 50!

So A new Zeiss Ikon with a 35mm Biogon is better for me then a nearly 50 year old M3 or 40 year old M4 with a 35 'cron.

 

I won't sell my G2, but the gap between 28 and 45 will be filled with a 35mm Biogon in M Mount!

[Alex_Es]

Don't worry. Leica will endure.

 

Consider how the Leica SLR system has endured. It is a niche market

in the world of SLRs and yet it has endured, high prices and all.

Not even the cheaper, more extensive and mechanically and optically

excellent Nikon system could kill the Leica SLR.

 

Ironically, Leica M killed the Nikon S system and the Canon LTM

system. In fact, Leica RF outlived all the Japanese Leica clones.

Besides that, it survived the Contax RF, which was no great feat,

given how Contax designs did not progress.

 

As of today, there is no professional RF system that offers any

competition to Leica M. Cosina / Voigtlander camera bodies do not

have the build quality of Leica M. C/V lenses vary in build quality

but few if any have the solidity of Leica lenses. Optically they are

not as good as Leica, though they are very good. (I've extolled the

virtues of the 21/4, the 28/2.5, 28/1.9, the 25/4, the 15/4.5, the

12/5.6 and SC 25/4 and 35/2.5. elsewhere in this Forum.) What Cosina

has done is create a wonderful back up system for Leica--not only for

the M but also for LTM Leicas and Leica clones. It has not only done

this with lenses and accessories but also bodies. C/V bodies are fun

but not as well made--as I know (I've discussed this elsewhere as

well).

 

I predicted that the Zeiss Ikon would be a transmogrified C/V R2A or

R3A. It is another camera--but not entirely. You set the frames

manually, just as on the C/V R series. One will have to see the

camera itself to judge its build quality. The camera shows 28/35/50/

85mm frames. You can see that it is not trying to compete with Leica

but only offer a complimentary body. It has no frames for 75/90 and

135mm. This I take to be a silent acknowledgement that Leica is

still the standard by which all other RF cameras are measured.

 

What will and will not offer direct competition to Leica? Certainly

the lenses will if they are any where near Leica's build and optical

quality. Still, Zeiss is not at this point offering Leica's speed.

No 28/2, 35/1.4, 50/1.4. The 85/2 cannot be said to be in direct

competition with Leica's 90/2 because it is a different focal length.

the 21/2.8 certainly will be a threat to Leica's 21/2.8 ASPH because

it is lighter and will probably be cheaper. The 25/2.8 may well kill

Leica's 24/2.8--but maybe not.

 

Ironically, the appearance of the Zeiss Ikon might boost Leica sales.

When you go into a system you want as much variety as possible.

Zeiss is offering just that. Their most mouth-watering lens maybe

the Distanon 15/3.5. You will be able to mount it on a Leica, unlike

the Contax 16/8 which not seldomly ends up with a custom Leica mount

here in Japan.

 

Think about this. Did C/V sudden appearance of Contax / Nikon S

mount lenses and cameras bring down the prices of Nikon SPs and Nikor

and Contax lenses? Uh-uh. If anything, it may have created a mini

gold rush in that niche used market. Suddenly you have fresh and

cheap wide angle lenses and a cool like meter you can mount on your

IIa and SP. And then suddenly you have TTL exposure Contax and Nikon

S mount cameras you can mount your old Contax and Nikon S lenes.

 

I just recently got a Nikon S adapter / coupler which I am using on

my Canon 7S. I'll use it and a Contax adapter / coupler which I'll

find somewhere on the Zeiss Ikon. It's manual (vs auto) frame

changer is a real plus in that sense.

 

The Zeiss Ikon system's lenes will compete with Leitz to some extent.

But this is nothing new. Long ago Zeiss made LTM lenses, as did

everyone else. Leica survived.

[lucien1]

Alex,

 

> You set the frames manually, just as on the C/V R series.

 

No, it's like on a Leica : '' bright line frames activated by used lens type''

 

Lucien

[lucien1]

The Zeiss lenses made in Germany for the Zeiss ikon will be the Distagon 15/2,8 and the

Sonnar 85/2.

 

Lucien

[frank_reidelbach]

"Ironically, Leica M killed the Nikon S system and the Canon LTM system"

 

You're kidding. Canon was a small business in the 50's when Leitz was one of the biggest camera producers in the world. RF camera and lense innovation makes them a "big player". Canon gave up RF for SLR cameras late in the 60's. Even they got through a crisis in the early 70's (like Leica, but for other reasons) today they are NO.1 in camera business worldwide. A huge amount of professionals use Canon cameras, far more than Leica... and what happened to once upon a time "big player" Leica..? They are small business now, and hottest innovation on their cameras is saurian leather... ;-)

[pensacolaphoto]

"What Ford did to Jaguar is bring it reliability. I've often read that Jaguar owners should expect to spend a couple of thousand dollars on engine work every few years. Even so, the Jaguar continued to sell well enough to survive. "

 

Not entirely true; there are big financial problems with the Ford-Jaguar line. It was on the news last week.

[icuneko]

After perusing the info about the new Zeiss Ikon ZI rangefinder camera and lenses at www.zeissikon.com/camera.htm it seems that Zeiss Ikon is actually spelled Cosina. I wonder if it will be designer-name priced like the recent Rollei (read Cosina) RF system. Ah marketing , ... ah Bartleby!

[mark_theken]

Lucien wrote: The Zeiss lenses made in Germany for the Zeiss ikon will be the Distagon 15/2,8...

A Leica M mount f/2.8 15mm lens is the most interesting news IMHO. I think many Leica M users will find this a great addition to their Leica M outfit. I can not imagine a Leica M6, M7, MP user replacing there camera with a Cosina R2A/R3A rebadged as a Zeiss Ikon if that is what is what is being offered.

[john_r._fulton_jr.]

<I>"What Ford did to Jaguar is bring it reliability. I've often read that Jaguar

owners should expect to spend a couple of thousand dollars on engine work

every few years. Even so, the Jaguar continued to sell well enough to survive.

"

 

Not entirely true; there are big financial problems with the Ford-Jaguar line. It

was on the news last week.</I><P>Actually, Ford just jerked Jaguar out of

Formula 1 grand prix racing. And Cosworth engines. A sad state of affairs for

Formula One but should not effect Leica sales much.

[victor_genovese]

Nothing. Leica will do fine since Leica bodies sell to a different market such as collectors and wealthy photographers, snob appeal sells well and it is a proven market where two thousand dollar made in china limited edition designer label purses sell to affluent women. This Zeiss body and lens system will open up the market to the college students and the working class photographer who wants to explore the world of RF photography but was not able to afford it and it could bring new customers to the Leica franchise down the road.

[lee_shively]

The world's favorite hobby is speculation.

[terry_rory]

"College students and working class photographers".

 

I love it! Thats me you are talking about isn't it? (I am working class for sure.) Well us plebs already have those nice people at Cosina to thank for good affordable Leica compatible rangefinders. We weren't all holding our breath waiting 40 years for Carl Zeiss to make a "rangefinder camera fit for the common man".

 

In fact the "working class man" in this country is too busy investing in 1000 dollar/pound digital video cameras and home theatre TV/hifi systems to be bothered about the machinations of two unheard of German rangefinder systems. (Leica M and Zeiss Ikons will not have appeared on his consumer 'radar' and never will. Cosina Voigtlander will also be unknown to him despite their affordability to the average 'Prole' or student.)

 

I suppose I will get beaten up by Samual Dilbert who will reliably inform me that all his 'working class' friends in Paris and Monaco (and Cowdray park) are all toting Hermes Leicas!

[Uhooru]

What Ford did for Jaguar was to bring it mediocrity. So what if the best days in the life of a Jaguar owner were the day it was bought and the day it was sold:) A well maintained Jag was a thing of beauty.

In this case, I don't see any mechanical problems in Zeiss products or Leica's that get reliability added by using Cosina substructures, just the opposite.