Soap vs. PhotoFlo

[redmachus]

I'm debating the ups and downs of substituting soap for PhotoFlo.

Mostly, I'm deciding if I should risk it or not. I don't have ready

acsess to PhotoFlo right now, and money is a bit tight, and I had

heard of others using a soap substitute. I thought I might give it a

try, but I need some information first.

 

First of all, has anyone had any first-hand experience with using

soap? What sort of soap, and what amount of working solution did you

use to make it (I've heard of everything from dish soap to the blow

bubbles that kids use)? Are the any specific disadvantages to using

soap (mainly, anything permanent that a second washing of the

negative wouldn't fix)?

 

I would appriciate any information or advice anyone could give me.

Also, if anyone could provide a link to specific data on the

subject, that would be brilliant.

[frank.schifano]

PhotoFlo isn't that expensive, but if you must, use dishwashing detergent not soap. One or two drops in 1L of water should do the trick. You only want enough to get the water to sheet off the film. You don't want enough to make suds.

[rowland_mowrey]

Casey;

 

Soap is more alkaline than photo flo, and more prone to forming scum. It reacts with calcium and other metals in water and forms an insoluable precipitate that photo flo does not.

 

It will work, but less effectively and using distilled water is virtually mandatory. It should never be used with color films where the final pH of the emulsion is critical, and it also may affect some B&W films.

 

Ron Mowrey

[djl251]

What's photoflo cost 3, 4 bucks per 50 films. Things must be pretty tight indeed.

[jennifer_thomas]

Hi,

I wouldn't...I paid $5.00 for the 4oz bottle. You only use 1/2 what they reccomend, and that bottle will do a real lot. Don't store used photo flo. If you use stop bath, vinegar is also not worth a possible problem. I paid mail order $5.00 for a quart of glacial acetic acid. That will make 55 oz of 28%. Very cheap and no hazmat on a quart. 4 quarts in a box there is no hazmat. 1 gallon bottle there is. Go figger.

Jennifer

[jennifer_thomas]

OOPS, that should have read over 110 oz of 28% stop. Real cheap...

 

Jennifer

[redmachus]

Donald,

 

True, PhotoFlo isn't that expensive, and it last quite awhile. However, I'm not necessarily thinking in the short term:

 

PhotoFlo: $5 x 10 bottles = $50

Soap: $1 x 10 bottles = $10

 

$40 could mean more film, paper, other chemicals, or gas money for a weekend trip to the mountains. I might be splitting hairs, but these things do add up (especially for poor students who do this as a hobby; in other words, not getting paid for it).

 

Now, having said that, aside from soap or detergent, does anyone know of any other rinsing agents similar to PhotoFlo that might be cheaper? I'm not sure I would want to risk damage to my negatives with soap; I would much rather pay the extra money to be sure.

[jorge_oliveira2]

I've seen posting by people using Jet Dry - and no damaged negatives after a long time (decades)?

 

You have to weight yor risks. How long do you intend your negatives to last?

[jorge_oliveira2]

I've seen posting by people using Jet Dry - and no damaged negatives after a long time (decades)?

 

You have to weight yor risks. How long do you intend your negatives to last?

[rowland_mowrey]

PhotoFlo is a nonionic surfactant.

 

Earlier versions were ionic neutral surfactants.

 

Other similar compounds include TritonX 100, Saponin, and similar trade named chemicals. Some are excellent, some good, some poor. For example, TritonX 100 is quite good, but Saponin can be sticky when it dries. I wouldn't use it.

 

Do some research on nonionic surfactants and you might find something useful and inexpensive. Glycerine is a mild surfactant, but not good enough IMHO. There are a whole host of them out there you can use, but if you do, don't use them for color, and beware that they may have adverse effects on film.

 

The post above is reasonable about using detergent rather than soap. Detergents are better, but they are still somewhat alkaline. A classic detergent type surfactant is Di-nonyl napthalene sulfonic acid Sodium salt. I don't, offhand, know its trade name.

 

Ron Mowrey

[kelly_flanigan1]

The first 4 oz brown glass bottle of PhotoFlo I bought was about 25 cents but gas was say 17 cents; stamps 2 cents. Lunch money at school was 1.25 per week; 25 cents a day. I worked in the cafeteria; serving rolls; milk; and then cleaned up the uneaten stuff into cans; for a farmer to feed his pigs. I pocketed the 1.25 per week; by working in the cafeteria; I guess I could have bought 5 bottles of PhotoFlo per week then.<BR><BR>The Photoflo 200 I bough last year at a small store was 9.15 for 16 oz; abit shocking. <BR><BR>

[winfried_buechsenschuetz1]

I did not try plain soap but used dishcleaner many years ago. I cannot really recommend this. The emulsion became very soft (although I just used two or three droplets in a tank full, i.e. at least 500ccm, of water) and got damaged in some spots.

 

If money is so tight that you can't afford PhotoFlu (or similar stuff like Agfa Agepon), just buy one roll less per year and save the money for a bottle of PhotoFlu.

[anders_br_the]

If you want to save money, yoy use neither photo-flo nor detergents. I always wash my my B&W film in tap water and hang it to dry, no water spots at all. Since you don't have access to Norwegian tap water (very low in additives, and very soft, does not smell anything which is quite contrary to tap water in continental europe and US, the only tap waters I have tried), i suggest you use distilled water for a final rinse and let dry.

 

My 2 cents...

[russell_brooks]

Dont forget the energy used when you air condition your house. If you store lots of liquids indoors and then let them heat up (say you went away for the weekend and turned the AC off) then it will take extra energy to cool down those large bottles. Given this you should mix all your chemicals up just prior to use. However you might want to avoid D76 and other developers that require mixing at 40+ degrees since this will also increase your electric or gas bill when the boiler has to kick in. All things to think about in addition to your photoflu problems.

[richard_ilomaki]

Casey

 

I have the luxury(?!?!?) of an air conditioner and use the condensate from it, collected into a 5 gal plastic Tide jug ( well rinsed out with tap water)I got from a neighbour's recycle basket. I use it now for mixing developers and final rinses. Nothing beats it, Phot-flo or no.

 

I have used a few drops of dish detergent in a litre of tap water, rinsed teh negs, then squeegied them of with a piece of old windshield wiper- no problem.

 

BTW food grade acetic acid- distilled table vinegar - is better than diuted industrial grade glacial acetic acid.

 

Cheers

[chris_eve]

I have used dishwashing liquid, "Fairy Liquid", to be precise, (the green one), and have found ONE drop per litre of water to be adequate, any more causes foaming. If you manage to introduce two (or more) drops by mistake, make up the resultant liquid to two litres (or whatever), use what you need and discard the rest.

 

I have home-processed colour negative films that are now 20 years old (and b&w negs significantly older) rinsed like this and they show no signs of degredation.

[al_divenuti]

I wouldn't be too concerned about saving money here. Even PhotoFlow works out to about $0.01 per film roll at the recommended Kodak dilution (an order of magnitude too great, IMO).

 

Yeah, you can avoid using this stuff by doing a final rinse and spraying down your negs. with distilled water from a plant sprayer. BUT the only way to avoid spots is to prohibit standing water from forming on the film. Doesn't matter how clean the water is folks, it WILL pick up some stuff from the air and that will spot your film. My process was to spray down the hanging negs, wait an hour and look for standing spots and spray those areas down again. The standing water droplets formed further down the film each time and after a couple hours they were droplet free.

 

That's too much trouble so I bought some FormaFlo. No worries or headaches now.

 

Don't know why anyone tries to pinch pennies here. Spots can ruin negatives as re-washing doesn't always remove them. Why fumble the ball on the 1 yard line? Get some FormaFlo or Edwal LFN (also, by reputation, excellent).

[joe_symchyshyn]

Penny wise, Pound foolish.

 

Buy the PhotoFlo and do it right.

[phillip_p._dimor]

I use JetDry. You know, the stuff you put in a dishwasher?

 

I have trouble finding photo flo around here. Works fine and I have less problems with it. I use two drops in one liter of water and soak with that. Works well for me. Can be found at any supermarket too.

[titrisol]

Do not use soap/dish dtergent. You maybe adding oxidants to your film.

 

Stick with photo-flo and in emergencies! only use Jet-Dry or similar, just a drop in 500ml (check that your jet dry is not the one with peroxide in it though)

[paul_raphaelson]

short answer: soap and photoflo are different. the main thing they have in common is they

make bubbles. it might take a leap of faith to believe that two chemicals that make

bubbles could in fact be different, but i suggest you find a way to make that leap.

 

main issue: photoflo, a wetting agent, will completely evaporate. soap will not. this is why

you have to RINSE your hands after you wash them, your hair after you shampoo, etc.

 

personally, i want soapscum on my negatives about as badly as i want dried, matted

shampoo in my hair, so i spend the 3 cents per dose it costs to dump in a capful of

photoflo.

 

side note: you CAN use photoflo on your dishes, but not as soap. a capful in the rinse

water will leave your dishes streak and spot free. there are wetting agents in dishwasher

detergent for this reason, but not in hand washing detergent. i learned this trick from a

restaurant chef, not some insane photographer who likes to cook with photochemistry.

[rowland_mowrey]

Guys;

 

A common misconception is that photo flo evaporates.

 

It does not. It is spread so thin over the film and in the emulsion that you do not see that it is still there, but it is in minute quantity. (thats why you use so little in the final rinse)

 

Oh, it will eventually evaporate, but not in hours, more like months or years. It is a relatively high molecular weight organic compound with a high boiling point.

 

It can also act as a mild lubricant or plasticizer for your film keeping it more flat and flexible, but to a very limited extent.

 

Ron Mowrey

[jim_appleyard]

I've used soap in a pinch, but always a mild one like Ivory hand soap or Doc Bronner's, but went back to Photo-flo ASAP as I was never sure what long term effects soap might have on the negs. The solution was very weak.

 

It works, but I can't recommend it. IMO, you're being penny wise and pound foolish. Spend the extra $ on Photo-flo.

[tim obrien]

LFN - Bought a $4.75 bottle a year ago, have processed 2 hundred plus rolls/loads of sheet film, use it as part of a presoak for W2D2+, still have half a bottle. Come on now.

 

 

tim in san jose

[bas1]

I use Agfa agepon. Bottle costs < ? 5,- and I've developped more then 100 roles of film and still have over 1/3rd left. Granted that I often develop more then one roll at a time but for that kind of money I wouldn't take any changes..