andrew_holman1 Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Some of my 120 film rolls have been giving me increased density on the vertical end edges of the film, both sides. I am shooting 100 T-max 120 and processing with T-max developer in stainless tanks. It is easy to notice when the subject is a partial sky landscape. Should I make sure to fill the tanks up to the top to reduce the chemical "slosh" during agitation? Would a water bath before the developer help this as well? I have read her in this forum that too much agitation can cause this as well as not enough. My initial agitation is continious for the first 15 seconds and then 3 inversions once every 60 seconds. Its been about 5 years since I processed 120 film and I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong. I used to get it right all the time. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelging Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Andrew ---My 120 film has always had the tendency to develope greater density at the edges than the middle. It usally seems to come with over agitation.The way you are agitating the film should not be over doing it though.Are you using a high energy developer like HC110? I started using once a minute agitation ,with 2 or 3 inversions and then a twisting type roll.This stopped my dense edges,I also use D76 ,1 to 1 ,which is not a high energy developer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimvanson Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Edge density problems inevitably make me think agitation.<P>I'm not a SS tank guy (I use Paterson plastic tanks) but I think that you're headed in the wrong direction -- you should leave space not fill the tank completely (Paterson's have that built in space that the funnel shapped inner lid provides). I'd also suggest you consider rotating the tank as you invert it as that seems to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronald_moravec1 Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Your problem is insufficient agitation. Fresh developer is not getting to the center leading to localised underdevelopment. Agitation needs to be vigorous and random so as not to leave any patterns. Suggestions as follows: 1- Five to seven inversions in five seconds and rotating the tank 45 to 90 degrees when setting it down. 2- Invert and twist at the same time and return with a twisting rotation. Perform two times in 5 sec. Over-back-over-back. 3a- Use a two reel tank and put film on the bottom reel and a BLANK reel on the top. Fill with ONLY enough developer to cover the bottom reel. Invert two times in 5 sec and rotate 1/4 turn when putting to rest. 3b- Same as 3a except agitate by rolling. Roll far enough to rotate the reel 1 1/4 times and back again. Perform twice in five sec, forward, back, forward, then back. Stand up to rest and rotate so you do not keep starting at the same point. The film will move thru the developer and out similar to a motorized processer. I have used all these techniques at one time or another and they all work. Write again to let us know how you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_holman1 Posted October 26, 2004 Author Share Posted October 26, 2004 The developer is T-max mixed 1:4 and I do rotate the tank as I invert it withe 3 inversions. In the last batch I did not fill the developer to the top and seem to have more problems when doing it this way...but i'm not 100% sure. Ugh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_ly1 Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 There are other variables for this too.. When using Photo-Flo, you don't want it to make contact with the reels. The substance will gum up your reels and will be next to impossible to remove. So during development, the edges end up getting more development since the Photo-flo is accelerating development. I learned this the hard way. Now I do my photo-flo process on a separate tray and no longer enounter this kind of problem. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_waller Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 A scan of the negs would help but assuming we're not looking at fogging then I'd also suggest agitation. I also use Paterson tanks - 600 ml developer (the developer should just reach the bottom of the funnel leaving plenty of space for the liquid to run into). I give four inversions in the first 30 seconds then one inversion per 30 seconds after that. I also pre-soak (2 minutes at working temperature). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_cook1 Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Prolonged slow gentle agitation will cause this. Your initial 15 seconds is probably too much. I have found that 5 rapid inversions within 5 seconds, at the top of each minute is sufficient. Pick up the pace and your symptoms should disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_finch Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Your tank must have room above the liquid to let it move easily. The inversions should be quickly over, wait a second as the liquid falls to the other end.. then quickly back again with twists incorporated in these movements if you so wish. The rapping of the tank with the nuckles after you finish a series is also important to let any bubble escape from the reel and float to the top of the liquid.. apart from that you sound like you are doing it spot on... and as I assume your 35mm are working out ok it does seem strange. Facinating really?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.w. Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Well, Andrew, there you have it. You are simultaneously both under-agitating and over-agitating your film. This should teach you a lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_holman1 Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yeah, shoot 4x5 or digital! Boy, how confusing....I guess I will just run a few more tests and see how I come out. I will also try to post a scan of the photos as well. If by chance photo-flo is a problem for the reels, how would you clean them of the residue? I guess I will try that as well as a roll with increased adgitation and then a roll with less.... Does the amount of chemical in the tank really play a part? I used to think that if I filled up the tank to the top it would give better even development, but now am starting to think different. Would a water soak before development help and would it make a difference if I began the process by placing the film reels into the developer already in the canister instead of pouring the developer in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_finch Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Too much and too little agitation... funny isn't it :) .... There must be room above the developer for it to mix up properly when you invert the tank. By products of development must be mixed up thoroughly so as not to cause uneven development. With the tank full the liquid cannot slosh enough to thoroughly agitate these by products throughout the developer and, of course, to get fresh developer to the films surfaces evenly. I would place an empty real in the tank and measure how much dev covers it, with a half inch for safety. This is the amount of working dev you should be using. I used to use a water soak before the dev but then started to use Ilford films all the time. They do not recomend a soak as it washes away certain additives in the emulsion that are helpful. Now I don't use a water soak for any films and have found it totally satisfactory. Your development times would be slightly longer than mine, that's all. As has been mentioned above, consistency is the key to most photographic processes and so if you use a soak, always use a soak. I thought photo flow was a detergent so it should be self cleaning, but if it has any residue then a scrub in hot water will remove it, I would have thought. Never had the problem with it myself but I always scrub my plastic reels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_holman1 Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Here is a link to a contact sheet that I recently processed. http://www.andrewholman.com/contact_sheet_test.jpg Wonderful..huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 "If by chance photo-flo is a problem for the reels, how would you clean them of the residue?" Use toothpaste on a toothebrush and brush gently. Don't use the flouride kind, otherwise the resulting slippy reel surface will prevent developer adhesion and will result in lower density at the edges of the frame. A new brush avoids the usual brown stains. Once you get the hang of this it takes less than an hour per reel to complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_holman1 Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Would this residue be visable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim obrien Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Don't ferget to floss the center spool. tim in san jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_trochlil Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 I solved the problem by switching to Paterson tanks. I never could get even development consistantly in steel tanks. Finally gave up and have lived happily after after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_holman1 Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 Just a followup: I shot a test roll and processed it in a double roll SS canister. I put enough chemical into it to give it about 1/2 inch above the reel. I then placed one 120 reel and one 35mm reel to give it a tight fit. Rather than pour the developer into the canister, I dropped the whole works in and began the time with a 5 second agitation period inverting and twisting about 5 times in the first 10 seconds. At the top of each min. I did the same, but only gave it 3 twisting inversions. Here is the new contact sheet. Dont mind the dark parts on the wall at the top of the film, that was a shadow from the light fixture. I would say that it looks pretty good to me....better at least. http://www.andrewholman.com/contact_sheet_test2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_finch Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 yep :) Looks like you cracked it... great stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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