Looking for a good starting point to learn darkroom skills...

[vertigo 01]

Hrm, well, I hope this isn't too broad a topic for this forum,

someone kick me in the right direction if I should be somewhere

else... anyway, on to my question: I'm currently an aspiring

photographer who is working with nothing but a Sony DSC-S85 *DIGITAL*

camera right now. I'm absolutely dying to get myself onto an SLR rig

of some sort or another, so I can actually start playing around with

things a little bit, my only problem is that I have *NO* (as in none,

nada, zip, zilch) experience with film cameras at all... I'm looking

right now at a Canon EOS Elan 7 body, and a basic 50/1.8 lens... my

real problem though, comes when I try and figure out what sort of

film I should start off with... I've got a decent budget right now,

but I'd definately like to keep costs down in the long run, so I've

been looking to start up my own darkroom, though again, I have *NO*

experience at all in this area... I'm generally quite competent

technically, so I'm not afraid to dive right in, but I'm having

troubles figuring out what would be a good starting point, again,

keeping in mind that I have *NO* experience with film at all... Who

should I learn from ? any reccomendations for books etc. ? Which

brands/speeds of film will be best for me to start learning with ? Is

trying my own darkroom even a good idea to start off with ? and if

not, then what sort of solutions would you guys reccomend ? are there

any other glaringly obvious things that I'm completely

overlooking ? ? any / all help and suggestions are appreciated

here :) ..

 

Thanks for your time / suggestions and all :)

 

--Nic

[joey]

Does your local community college have a photography course? That's a great place to get some hands-on darkroom experience. Photography clubs are also good.

 

As for black and white film, it sounds like you're going to be doing your own processing (which is good). I'd get a bulk loader and a few canisters, and load all your film in bulk to save costs (it's what I do). Tri-X is a great film and comes in 100 foot reels. Even if you decide not to load your own film, Tri-X is still very good.

 

For your first SLR, especially if you'll have access to a darkroom, the Elan might not be the best choice. I'd get a manual SLR, so you can learn all about the basics without any frills. You could use Nikon, so in case you decide to upgrade to an automatic body you could still use your manual lenses.

 

For more darkroom info, try <a href="http://www.darkroomsource.com">www.darkroomsource.com</a>.

[richard_michael_dawes]

Darkroom Skills

 

Two years ago I was in the same situation and I went to a local course on basic Black and White skills. The emphasis was on the dark room and how to get an image out of the mistakes you are going to make as a beginner!

 

It was an evening course � about a dozen nights at one night a week. The instructor was a real character. A Finn who had done a Masters in photography in Hungary. (He spoke good English too.) He had done a lot of �social photography�, dark moody stuff; but he brought photography alive to the five of us who shivered through the mild Australian winter evenings.

 

All in all the best thing I ever did. Now all slowness is due to my own laziness. But at least I know whom to blame.

 

Remember, the future is ahead of you so live in the future � Richard

[christian_harkness]

I sure agree with Richard and Joey, find a Photo 101 course somewhere. Yes and get an all manual camera.

 

I am a little puzzled by your statement that you want to get a film camera so that you "...can actually start playing around with things a little bit..." You certainly can do that, and then some, with a digital camera and good image editing software and an Epson printer.

 

Of course, if you want to learn the 'wet darkroom - just because...', that is good enough.

 

chris

[ed b.]

I suggest you read Ansel Adams' THE NEGATIVE. You may not understand the Zone System from reading it (a better book for that is Phil Davis' BEYOND THE ZONE SYSTEM), but I think it would inspire you to try to master the art and craft of black and white photography.

 

I agree with the earlier poster who suggested a simple, near-manual camera. Get an old Pentax, a Canon AE-1, or a Leica M if you can afford one. Or, even better, get a medium format Mamiya or Yashica.

[alec1]

Look for a book by Fred Picker called "Zone VI Workshop". Even though you might not be ready for using the zone system yet, that book is the best I've seen at just basic B&W darkroom instruction [e.g. how to determine film speed, how to develop film-both 35mm and sheet film- how to proof it and how to print it. Worth the search.

[vertigo 01]

Just a quick reply to Christian's question... what I meant by "Playing with real stuff" was more in respect to getting an SLR rig going than what I could do with photo effects... ... sadly, dropping the $6 000 Canadian on a digital SLR rig is just a bit out of my league right now... ... : / especially for a college student like myself... : /

 

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions so far :)

 

--Nic

[christian_harkness]

Nic, what I am also getting at was that, although I am an 'old school' wet darkroom guy, I believe that digital photography is basically 'here', and that somebody just getting started needs to think hard if they want to invest the time and energy in a traditional darkroom vs. a digital, or partially digital set up.

 

chris

[ted_kaufman]

First of all, digital photography has not taken over yet. And it will be a some time yet before it matches film quality, longevity and cost. The other thing, with respect to digital, that I have seldom heard discussed, is what happens in 5 years to the precious images you make now and store on Zip disks or CD-ROM when there are no more Zip disk or CD-ROM disk drives available? And will software 5 years from now even recognize TIFF or JPEG formats? Think that can't happen?

 

A research scientist friend of mine stored data on state of the art optical disks 10 years ago. The two drives he used to store the data have gone down and no one will fix them--the manufacturer is long since gone and parts are no longer available. No one makes a drive that will read his obsolete media. Mind you, this was state of the art only 10 years ago. Now he has a ton of data he wants to re-examine in light of new findings, and he can't access the data. Think about this dilemma all you folks who sing high praise of the wonderful world of digital. This problem will be yours to deal with. It is not the manufacturers' concern. They will forge ahead with new technology and tell you without a blink, "We don't support that format (or equipment or technology, etc.) any longer." Simple as that.

 

Sorry for the digression. Now, what camera should you buy? I would suggest a manual focus camera what has good manual metering capability. If it has automatic exposure, too, that's fine. But to learn with, you want good manual operation. An otherwise good camera that is annoying to use this way is the Canon AE-1. On manual mode, its finder shows what aperture the camera suggests, but does not show you the aperture you have selected. The Canon AT-1, while lacking automatic fuction, is a far better choice for manual operation. Even better, the Minolta X-370 is a great little camera and would suit your purposes perfectly. It's very well laid out, has an excellent viewfinder with full information on manual or automatic. It's also cheap, typically selling for < $100 in good condition w/ 50mm 1.7 lens (which, btw, is outstanding) on ?bay (the "?" is a wildcard for which you could substitute, say, an e).

 

The books the previous posters have recommended are certainly good, but the Zone System might be over your head at this stage. Fred Picker's book, if you can find it, is a good choice, now, however. And there are many other beginner's books that address the fundamental details you need.

 

Certainly a local photo class or workshop would be worthwhile and save you a lot of time and frustration. If you could find a local photographer who would guide you along, that would also help a lot. Another alternative is a local camera club. Many of them have darkrooms available for members that cost next to nothing. And you will be able to learn from the more experienced members there, as well. Quite often they conduct workshops for members.

 

If you are not opposed to diving in with both feet, then, by all means, get a bulk loader. They are great for a beginner because you can load short rolls for film/developer tests. And in the long run, they will save you considerable money. The best of them is the Alden 74. Everything else is second-rate. The Watson loader is a copy of the Alden; it works okay, but is made of cheaper materials.

 

What film? I recommend you begin with a 400 speed film, mainly because they are more forgiving of exposure and processing errors than slower films. Ilford's HP5+ is a fine general purpose film, and it has long since surpassed Tri-x as the preferred 400 speed conventional grain film. Fuji Neopan 400 is outstanding, too, but costs almost twice as much as HP5+ in bulk rolls; however, it is actually cheaper than HP5+ in factory packaging. Go figure. I have no idea why. Another great film is Delta 400. For my money it's the best 400 speed film on the market, but it's nearly double the cost of HP5+, in bulk and per roll. Which one should you use? In roll form, HP5+ or Fuji Neopan 400 (they are nearly identical in performance and almost the same price from B&H or Adorama). In bulk spools, HP5+, or Delta 400 if you don't mind spending the extra money ($24 vs. $40 / 100').

[Troll]

While the best source is a good instructor, it ain't always possible. Next best is a good beginner's book (NOT Ansel Adams advanced texts). Local library is cheapest -- Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc have several good books on basic darkroom. I'd start there.

[ryuji_suzuki]

I suspect as digital quality improves, 35mm format will be the first one to become obsolete. It is your decision, but I would not spend much of my money on new 35mm equipment.

 

If you are looking for another starting point to try different shooting style, darkroom experience, higher image quality, different ideas inspired partly from these different aspects,

I would suggest you at least give a serious consideration to medium format twin lens reflex cameras. You can buy some used ones like Yashica MAT 124 or even less expensive recent knock-offs and see if you like the shooting style and darkroom work. Yashica MAT 124 or 124G is easy to sell if you decide to upgrade to more serious TLRs, SLRs or rangefinder cameras. You might want to invest on a good light meter from the beginning, though.

 

With medium format, scanning films requires a bit more serious scanner, but these days you can get an ok scanner with usable transparency unit for $600 or so, and a decent one around $2k.

 

With medium format, darkroom experience is more pleasant than tiny 35mm (at least once you get over with loading film to reels) and you can make contact prints of 2 inches square images that you can look at easily without loupe in virtually any room during night even before getting an enlarger. (use a small light bulb with dimmer)

[lex_jenkins]

Try to find some of the older Kodak guidebooks - they were really good. Learned a lot from 'em as a kid just getting into photography and processing. Dig around used bookstores, camera shops, even thrift stores.

 

All you need to start out with, besides a camera, is some film (Tri-X is the most forgiving - it develops well in practically anything).

 

To process the film, you just need a tank with a reel. Some folks prefer the Patterson style plastic tanks with the "wiggle" reels. Others prefer the steel tanks with spiral reels that you load from the inside out. Either becomes easy with a little practice.

 

Take your pick of developers. I liked HC-110 for one-shot use - mix up a little of the syrup with water when needed. Others prefer to mix a big batch of another developer ahead of time so it's ready to go. Now I'm using Ilfosol S, again in one-shot mode. Suits my moderate consumption.

 

A decent condensor enlarger with a filter drawer is all you really need, tho' a fancier dichro (hot head, diffused light, built-in filters) or cold light head is great once you've gotten the hang of things. Lots of folks still swear by the Leitz Valloy. My first enlarger was a clone of the early Leitz Valloy and worked great. I'm still pleased with some of the prints I made with it decades ago.

 

For paper, Kodak Polycontrast RC or Ilford Multigrade IV are great. I've just begun using the Ilford and like it a bit better than the Kodak, tho' it's almost a toss up. Easier than using graded or fiber papers 'til you get the hang of things.

 

Again, choose yer poison (so to speak) for chemicals. After umpteen years of using nothing but Kodak I've switched to Ilford this year just for giggles. So far, so good.

 

Oh, yeh...get yourself one of those cheap but good Fiskars paper cutters from the sewing, notions or crafts department. They're just plastic with a hinged guide for drawing the cutting edge along - costs about $14 and well worth it. You'll need one for cutting test strips. Scissors are a PITA in the darkroom. Dang, that reminds me...I need to find *my* Fiskars cutter.

 

Just remember: no one was born knowing this stuff; nobody knows it all; nearly anybody can do at least some of it well enough to have fun and produce rewarding prints.

[dk_thompson]

I'm with Bill Mitchell on this....find a photo course in your community, like a community college, camera club etc. Check and see if there are any rental darkrooms or co-ops. I'd skip the zone system books if you're really starting out, great books, but they're likely to confuse you or be information over-load at first. Good beginners books in my opinion (of course) are Henry Horenstein's "Basic Photography" or "Beyond Basic Photography", Phil Davis's basic book or any of the Time-Life, Morgan & Morgan or Kodak books. Kodak has a couple of great how-to darkroom books as well, including "Building a Home Darkroom" should you decide to go that route....

 

As for film & stuff, just stick with the basics like non-T grain films at the start like Plus-X, Tri-X, FP4+, HP5 etc. These films are a little more abuse tolerant in processing. Just about all the major manufacturers have similar types of chemistry, so pick a brand you can find easily in your area & start with that. If you can find it, the Sprint chemistry is easy to use at the start...it all mixes up at the same dilutions & is a concentrate. Stick with rc papers to begin with, some general purpose ones like Polycontrast, or Multigrade IV Deluxe would be good to start with. It doesn't take a whole lot of money or space to have an adequate b&w darkroom, and there is alot of used gear market on the market now in that regard as well...but contrary to what some might tell you, I don't think film is going anywhere too soon, so good luck & welcome to the darkroom.....

[christian_harkness]

Here is a quote from a Photo District News [PDN] forum talking about digital:

 

"I just read an article in American Photography tonight about Hollywood portrait & glamour photographer Greg Gorman now using an Epson 9600 to print both his color and B&W work. He scans his film(when he's shooting film) with an 8,000 DPI scanner, imports it into PS7, works with the images, sharpens a little with Nik Sharpener Pro, then outputs with the 9600.

The article showed him holding a 44X? inch color print of Jodie Foster, but also showed some impressive B&W prints of his work such as the photo of Djimon(?)on the cover, plus Iman, Leo DiCaprio, Elton John and others.

Gorman is the second big name pro I can think of using the 7600/9600 series. Joyce Tennesson also used one of them for an exhibit a couple months ago. "

 

chris

[dk_thompson]

yeah, thanks I can read that off the pdn forum too....who cares? I thought this site was for traditional b&w darkroom enthusiasts....don't blow this guy off y'all, telling him film is dead...maybe in some circles it is, but it's sure not in the tiny slice of the industry I make a living at...heck, museums & archives will be the last places left probably using wet labs.....someone wants to learn about darkroom work, let 'em, don't discourage them, encourage them!