Leni Riefenstahl .

[david j.lee]

HEY! csab, if you want to trash leni or george,you are welcome, but stay

away from woody.

[bacsa]

HEY! david, I am sorry to hurt your feelings; in fact i really like the movies of Woody Allen! Especially the Everything you always blah blah! just they are so incredibly un-arousing, you have to admit that;)

 

By the way who's George? :))

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>TV ads have been ripping off Leni's work for ages</I><P>Just as she ripped off the

German & Russian Expressionist & propagandist film maker of the 20's as well as the great

early American movie film makers. Leni would have had to been a blind idiot not to know

a.) who she was working for, b.) what their aims were, c.) the opportunities open to her by

being their visual voice. and d.) what was happening to all of the Jewish and left leaning

intellectuals who populated the previously vigorous German cinema and arts. The last

thing anyone can say of LR is that she was either blind or an idiot -- in other words she

knew exactly what she was about, who she was doing it for, and what their goals were. She

even used as extras gypsies from a concentration camp in her last Nazi era film.

As far as her winning awards: As the lead character in the movie "The Swimming Pool'

(very well photographed by the way in a very stylized self conscious sort of way) says to

her publisher; "Awards are like hemorrhoids. After awhile every assh0le gets one."

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>not that i am a fan of the oscar awards, but she was given an applause there last

year.</I><P> Don't overstate things. she was part of the usual parade of movie people

who died during the previous year. She was not singled out for a special round of

applause.

[david j.lee]

csab : yes,you are right. they are not very sexualy arousing.

ellis: she was given an applause. that is all i said.maybe when jodie foster

finally gets to play her, the will be applauding more, i don`t know.

[brambor]

I have sen Triumph Of the will in college ca. 1991 and found it interesting in the context of learning about the power of propaganda (the class was called documentary and social impact) since then I saw some of her photo work in africa and thought she did a wonderful job. I may disagree with her on many issues but we're not living paralel lives. I

[EricM]

"ellis: she was given an applause."

 

sounds like propaganda David?

[kent_tolley2]

the irony

[william_vickers1]

Like Vic, I find it hard to believe that any sentient photographer, Leica user, and Leica Forum member could have made it this far in life without knowing something about Leni Riefenstahl. But I don't doubt your word Trevor. I'm just amazed.

[john_brewton]

I saw an interview with her about twenty years ago. She claimed she was just a photographer doing her job. Sounds like Adolph Eichman. She saw nothing wrong with championing the Nazi cause and pleaded ignorance of what was (or had been) happening to other artists and entertainers who didn't agree with the Nazi party line. On the one hand she was a talented person. On the other hand she was a Nazi social climber and one of the elite in Hitler's sordid social circle.

[________1]

For some context and a time line,<a href="http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/nazis.htm"> Germany 1930's.</a>

[ellis_vener_photography]

Life would be so much easier if everyone were purely one way or another. The problem of

Leni I guess is that her extremes (talent vs. capacity for embracing evil) is so dramatic, yet

she saw no problem at all putting her talents to work for such vileness..

 

Maybe this is why the subject of LR is so fraught with extremes views: we want talent to be

associated with "good". Her life points out that there is no such relationship. That is an

idea hard to embrace.

 

I still think Riefenstahl was Hitler/Himmler/Goering/Goebbel's's willing whore. George

Rodgers believes that her bribing of the Nuba chieftains to stage animist rites for her

cameras so she could sell the photos (this is well documented and the easiest place to find

an account of her adventures with the Nuba is in Russell Miller's history of the Magnum

Photo Agency) led to them being attacked by the Sudanese goverment, an early precursor

of the current situation in Dafour.

 

There are way too many people who believe that their country or co-religionists can do no

wrong, indeed are put here as a force to stop evil. You can see this thinking in every

"faith' based goverment and of course in all religions. They use this belief to justify what

the rest of the world rightly sees as evil.

 

As Abraham Lincoln said, perhaps we should worry more more about our being on God's

side rather go about proclaiming that God is on ours.

[huw_finney]

Lest we forget.

[roger_michel]

her pictures just aren't that good. heck, if charles manson published a pbook of photographs, any photographs, people would buy the stuff. and if he happened to use a leica, we'd probably be talking about him here.

 

the ONLY reason in my book to even think about riefenstahl is for the purpose of remembering the evil of which men and women are capable.

[terry_rory]

I didn't learnt a lot from this discussion (about Leni at least) so I shall wait for the DVD to arrive (from Canada via Amazon) and in the meantime look for a good biography to learn more.

 

Thankyou to Sam for your brevity and good sense and a healthy perspective.

[vic_.]

Why don't the same people discuss the amazing medical breakthroughs of Dr. Josef Mengele?

 

Why is it fashionable for Western Europeans to be anti-Semitic?

[nesrani]

"Why is it fashionable for Western Europeans to be anti-Semitic?"

 

That is a fantastically stupid remark.

[terry_rory]

Bob I totally agree with you.

 

I think what Vic is saying is that if we want to take an interest in a historic event (or a character who played a part in that historic event) then we must be sympathisers with that character. In context... If I raise the subject of a Nazi sympathiser photographer and her propaganda films then QED I must also be a Nazi!!

 

So If I sit here watching the history channel and the programme is about Nazis then I am a Nazi. If the programme is about Henry VIII then of course I must also be beheading my wives!! If I buy a book about Ghengis Khan then of course I sympathise with bloodthirtsy hordes rampaging across mediaevel Europe.

 

Sorry Vic there is no sense to your comment. It is possible to read (or watch programmes or DVDs) about anti-semitic events without actually being anti-semitic.

 

Earlier someone mentioned that Walt Disney was anti-semitic. Does that make me and my children and millions of others who enjoyed "Sleeping Beauty" anti-semitic as well?

[terry_rory]

Anyway, if we are getting into blaming the sins of the artist upon those who view her work, maybe we should blame the sins of the grandfather (Prescott) upon George Bush? (There is some pretty solid stuff out there about Prescott Bush's involvement with the Nazi party's funding and a lot of it is from reliable sources.)

 

Maybe we need to focus on why the Government didn't pass the "Trading with the enemy act" until 1942(!) and after passing the act saw fit to 'compensate' Prescott Bush with $1,500,000 for the financial inconvenience it caused him.

 

Maybe IBM's continuous provision of Hollerith machinery, cards, programmers and technical support throughout WW2 needs to undergo Government scrutiny before we start blaming the entire war and its horrors on one female photographer/filmmaker. (Albeit an arrogant one with dodgy sympathies who had a nasty habit of denial.)

[paul t]

Trevor, if anybody implied being interested in the work of Riefenstahl makes

you a Nazi, then they're idiots. Riefenstahl is fascinating, precisely because

she was talented, and the cause was evil.<p>

I hope you find a good biography - and the suggestion remains you should

check out the book on Albert Speer, who definitely was talented (if not as an

architect), and definitely was culpable.

[jasper1]

Nazi memorabilia is also very popular and collectable for many; does not mean they are necessarily secret Nazi lovers.

[randy_skopar]

I find it difficult to see Nazi propaganda as a one-time thing that we can file away and feel comfortably superior to. Our own Hollywood mouths the old anti-Semitic formulas: all the Jews are rich, they work together to exclude other people, their success comes from dishonesty, they manipulate the economy to their benefit, they control everything, they connive internationally to hold down other ethnic groups and religions, their own religious faith is so much hypocrisy, etc., etc. Except, in Hollywood, the target of these smears is not the Jew but the white Christian male.

 

And the American propaganda is bearing its first fruit: careers are being quietly blocked, quotas are being instituted, this one bigotry has become socially acceptable, politicians exploit it when seeking office, and even the targets of the propaganda are heard to mouth its formulas. Remember the anti-Semitic Jews in prewar Germany? Hoping to protect themselves by joining in on the vilifying?

 

The more things change...

[nesrani]

Someone else came up with this white christian male as threatened species claptrap sometime ago. It was laughed off the forum then and should be now too.

[randy_skopar]

<<Someone else came up with this white christian male as threatened species claptrap sometime ago. It was laughed off the forum then and should be now too.>>

 

Actually, the person who made similar observations was banned from the site. The leftists responded to his arguments with such virulent ad hominem attacks that parts of the site became disorderly. Or maybe too much bandwidth was consumed. Anyway, when the lefties couldn't insult the lad into leaving, they screamed for him to be banned until management caved. Somewhat different from "laughed off," no?

 

Anyway, you should first re-read my argument. Did I say "endangered species"? Nope. Compared to the number of Jews in 1930s Germany, the number of white Christian males in America is large, so I don't think "endangered" is the proper image in 2004. You wish I had used that image. As a matter of fact, you wish it so much that you are pretending I actually did. Sorry.

 

Now, what did I really say? I said that there is a body of propaganda directed against white male Christians, and that this is the same set of smears that was directed at the Jews. Look back at the list of smears I gave you. Were those accusations made of the Jews? Are they being made of white Christian men in America right now? If you can't say a confident No to both questions, you have to concede I'm onto something.

 

Let me quote you again: <<Someone else came up with this white christian male as threatened species claptrap sometime ago. It was laughed off the forum then and should be now too.>>

 

Are you saying that it was banned then and should be banned now? That certain arguments should not be allowed? And is the lowercasing of the word Christian a puff of disrespect or a typo?

[randy_skopar]

Whoops. Uh, this is a Leica forum. During the production of 1930s propaganda, Leicas were also being manufactured. During this 2004 propaganda, Leicas are being manufactured. Ergo, this thread belongs in a Leica forum.

 

I mean, why not? The Leica forum is always zooming off into lefty politics. Why not something centrist?

 

Anyway, I've seen it before and I see it now: when you mention the name Leni Riefenstahl, it's like throwing a hand grenade into Sunday School. Wait! I mean, into Koran studies. Mustn't be "hegemonic"; gotta be "inclusive." Otherwise, somebody might organize a banning- and-burning-at-the-stake party.