First Monorail 4x5 camera

[sknowles]

I've been researching getting into 4x5 photography, and after deciding

photography I will initially be doing, which is both nature/landscape

and town/cityscapes photography, I decided to start with a monorail

camera instead of a field camera. But I'm also looking for a monorail

camera that is also packable within reason for hiking. Yesterday I

looked at several brands and models at a local (Seattle) store which

handles Linhoff, Canham Toyo, Horseman, Wista, etc., and found two

that seemed good for my interests. The first is the Horseman LE which

seems easy to use and learn view cameras. The second is the Linhoff

Technikardan, which is expensive but is relatively easy to use and

packable (although this is also a complaint from the research). I've

narrowed my lens choice down to a 75/90mm, 135mm and a 210/240mm

lenses initially, but that's a whole other question.

 

My questions are: (1) what others brand/models would folks recommend I

look at, and (2) what experience or opinions do you have of these two.

I had set a budget for the system, and the Linhof will surely bust

it, but I'm willing to find the extra money if it works.

[bob fowler]

Scott, your photographic requirements really point more to a field camera than a monorail, especially with the requirement of packing for hiking. Have you considered a Canham (new or used)?

[john_bailey1]

Dear Scott

 

You might also want to expand your consideration to Sinar. Perhaps, you may want to look at their F2 model. They certainly have all the features you are seeking, but come with an additional advantage. Sinar cameras throughout their range of models are interchangeable-you can add or upgrade as you need and progress. Take a look at eBay and see all the accessories, attachments and equipment that is for sale. I cannot guage if the other brands have as much available for purchase through private parties as does Sinar equipment.

 

The other day I purchased the book "One Thousand Buildings of Paris" which was entirely shot with a Sinar F2 according to one of the two photographers. I think if they can do that much architectural photography, you might want to consider Sinar as well. Personally, I find my Sinar cameras allow me to focus, adjust swings and tilts and determine depth of field easily and quickly.

 

Have fun researching your purchase.

 

Regards,

 

John Bailey

[beepy]

I picked up the <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?

O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=116075&is=REG">Arca-Swiss "Field" Monorail

Camera</a>. That said, watching some other folks with (esp.) Linhof Master Technika or

Wisner Espedition series, I think they may be more convenient for field use (more compact

- slightly easier setup). My issue in field is the Arca-Swiss breaks down into five separate

pieces - and I'm a little worried about losing or forgetting a piece...

<p>

I'm actually spending more time perhaps doing portraits in the studio than field work -

going back and forth (and am very new to this by the way).

<p>

So, I decided on a monorail since I was suspecting more studio work than fieldwork - and

fieldwork revolving around walking short distances from a car (which has proven to be a

little wrong - distances longer). But if I was doing lots of "field" work - would probably

have seriously looked at the Linhof Master Technika field camera. (As an aside, the

Technikardan looks to weigh more than my

Arca-Swiss.)

<p>

All that said - the Technikardan has compatible lensboards it seems with the Master

Technika - which would be nice if you ever decide to pick up a second real field camera.

<p>

I fear I'm not helping:-) One of my perverse reasons for buying the Arca-Swiss "Field"

camera was this Swiss company is truly quirky. Brilliant product, extremely well made, but

they sure do make it difficult to buy things from them:-) Finding <a href="http://

www.tomwestbrook.com/Photography/arca_swiss.html">information about the camera

</a> is a little tricky.

[tedharris]

Both the Arca Swiss and Technikarden mentioned earlier are excellent choices for field

work. Many regard them as superior to any of the flatbed or field cameras available. In

terms of their movements they clearly have most field cameras beat. In terms of weight

they aren't bad and they pack and setup as easily as most field cameras. I suspect that if I

didn;t have a huge investment in a Horseman FA system built up over many years I would

be using oen or the other.

 

As for the Horseman LE monorail it i sa dream to use but it hs heavy! It packs well but it is

heavy! I can't tell you homw much the LE weighs but when I need to take my 450 which is

equivelent to an LS (one or two steps up from the LE but same basic body) on location I

pack it in a purpose built hard case and the camera, rail, tripod block, mount, a couple of

lenses, bellows, etc. weigh in at over 20+ pounds.

[ronald_moravec1]

I came close to buying the Canham DLC. Iwas impressed by the long bellows and the fact they compressed nicely.

 

all things being equal, I would pick a 90-150-240. 75`s with good coverage are large, and what good are they without coverage?

 

Think about the next step after the first three. 72xl is nice, but an 80 is too close to a 90. A 300 is too close to a 240, but 240 and 400 tele are ok. Extra glass gets heavy fast so try to plan it right.

[ellis_vener_photography]

Scott, all of them are equally easy (or difficult) to use and each has it's own chandling

characteristics.

 

My choices i nthis areafor doing the kind of work you want to do are in this order the

Canham DLC, and then a tie between the Arca-Swiss Fc andthe Linhof Technika (TK45s).

doing landscapes and City scapes in truth doesn't normally require a lot of movements --

bit all ofthese cameras have plenty. My reasoning for putting he DLC first is that it is

compact and you don't need either wide angle bellows (for the 90mm or most shorter

lenses) or a recessed lens board. It is plenty rigid, quick to set up and has a bright but

contrasty groundglass/fresnel combination.

[User_503771]

If I were you, I wouldn't get either a monorail or a field camera as my first 4x5. I'd get either an old Meridian (the "American Linhof" -- great cameras but hard to find) or a flatbed. I think the best flatbed is the Ansco, because it's got great movements and built-in telescoping extension rail, and it's sturdy.

 

The reasons: A flatbed packs up almost as easily as a field camera. AND, I don't think you should buy new when you're getting your first 4x5. If you get the wrong one, it's a very expensive mistake. It's like buying a new car -- it's value is a lot less as soon as you've paid for it! And if you find you want something else, selling it will give you a lot less to put into what you want.

 

The flatbed would show you what you need and want in a view camera through the experience of using it. You can take the lenses you accumulate and keep those for use on other cameras if you switch.

 

If you must have a monorail, pick up an old Toyo/Omega 45D or 45F. (The 45F has interchangeable bellows.) (Watch out for the Toyo bellows, they're fragile. So make sure the one you get has a good bellows.) They have more movements than you'll ever use and, again, you can learn about all the camera controls from one of these. You might just settle on it as "the" camera. And they're lighter than a lot of the other monorails out there and you can pick them up for a song.

 

The main point is: If you start out on the cheap and learn from what you're using, later on if you want a new pristine "buzzers and bells" model, you'll be going in with experience. You'll be able to fully evaluate what you're looking at as you shop around, and thus end up much happier with your decisions in the long run.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[jbq]

I'm very happy with my Sinar F (bought used on eBay for a good price with lots of patience), and I'm most definitely a hobbyist large-format photographer.

[leonard_evens]

let me throw in a word for the Toho (not Toyo) FC-45X. See Kerry Thalmann's review at

www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

Badger Graphics sells it and they also sell a Chinese clone of it for about 2/3 the price. It is very light and easy to transport and has all the features of a monorail but the convenience of a field camera. I use mine with lenses in focal lengths from 75 mm to 300 mm.

[melvin_h_j_tan]

No one seems to have a good word for the Horseman LE. And I can understand why. I use the LE for my architectural work as well, but it's really heavy. Even to take it out of the car and walk a few hundred metres around a building can be a chore. However, I must say that for architectural work, the movements are plenty and the whole camera is built so well it's a joy to use, that's after you get it in position and mounted on a tripod. From the description of your use, I would strongly recommend a field camera, much lighter, easier to set-up and still with enough movements to shoot your cityscapes.

 

Hope this helps.

[sknowles]

Thanks for the responses, still more brands and models to review (Sinar - got their catalog, and Arca-Swiss). I can understand the logic to getting a field camera, portability and easier use (fewer controls). Perhaps my goals are somewhat muddled, learning large-format photography while trying to have a camera to do both what a field and a monorail camera will or won't do. I don't expect to give this up anytime soon, I've been shooting 35mm for ~35 years now, so moving to large format isn't a whim or novelty. I want to learn it for the longterm, probably replacing most of my 35mm use.

 

The idea I have for a monorail camera was the way they work, using the Horseman LE for example, is obviousness of use, each axis and control easily controllable, marked, and seeable. I understand I may never fully use the controls of a monorail camera, but initially it seems easier to learn. I didn't find the LE all that heavy, but then I carry 2-3 bodies and 4-6 lenses in my 35mm system hiking, sometimes a 300mm lens.

 

I guess once I grasp the practice of the camera, a field camera will be the next step to simplify things for hiking and most trips. I hope this helps the explanation. Suggestions still greatly appreciated.

[evan_clarke1]

Hi,

Look at the Arca F-metric with Orbix. I have one and it is compact and superb..Evan Clarke

[brian_kennedy]

Throw in a vote for Arca-Swiss Discovery. IMO, every bit as good as the more expensive F-Line, but at a much more reasonable price. It is not as light as a field camera (the lensboards are huge, for one thing), but it packs up nicely and I hike with mine all the time.

[audidudi]

When I first corresponded with Scott maybe six years ago, we were both happily shooting with 35mm Minolta SLRs and he generously gave a few uneeded (but still somewhat valuable) lenses to my daughter, who was then just getting started in photography. (Alas, she's pretty much abandoned it now, having decided that pencil drawing is her medium of choice.)

 

When we touched based again a few years later, I'd given up my brace of now-dead Minolta XKs in favor of a Bronica SQ-Ai and a few TLRs, and I was also starting to get my feet wet with a view camera by shooting medium-format with a rollfilm back.

 

The last time we communicated, perhaps a little over a year ago (or so it seems), Scott said he was considering adding a medium-format camera to his kit and I had pretty much given up shooting any format smaller than 4x5.

 

With that background in mind, it should come as no suprise then that with my having made the decision last fall to shoot 8x10 until I can no longer buy film for it, Scott continues to follow in my footsteps by moving up to 4x5!

 

Do you suppose that if I move up to a still larger format, say, 11x14, he'll give up 4x5 and switch to 8x10? Hmmm...

[sknowles]

Jeff,

 

Glad things are well. Daughters make their own decisions.

 

The decision to move to 645 turned out too expansive and would require selling almost my entire 35mm system to pay for it. I like my Minolta manual focus system I've built over ~35 years (lots o' stuff especially collector and esoteric lenses and equipment). I don't intend to abandon it, and I use it for many applications. It's a versatile system and I've managed to get Sekonic's L358 and Pocket Wizards to control the flashes and cameras.

 

My interest for 4x5 is for those images that are worth the large format, and I like the time, patience and thinking that goes into the work and the capabilities of the camera. It's my near and post retirement plans and with Seattle, Cascades and Olympic Mountains, especially my favorite, Mt. Rainier NP, one-plus hour drive from home, and Puget Sound just outside my door, it seems a nice lifetime venture.

 

No, 4x5 is more than enough. I'm still researching cameras and lenses, currently at 90mm, 135mm, 180mm and one in the 210-300mm range, but not all at once, and still have some cameras to see in stores (Sinar, can't find a 'local' store that carries Arca-Swiss). I've found it really pays to stand in behind the camera and have an experienced LF photographer walk you through the camera, and especially a store (and staff) that's willing to spend the time to set it up for you to see and learn.

[jean-louis llech]

I think that the subjects you intend to photography do not request a monorail camera for three reasons :<br>

1) A monorail camera is always heavier than a field one.

You quote the Horsmean LE. It is a heavy camera : 4.5Kg (9.9lbs), and the monorail length is limited to 400mm.<br>

2) Setting up a monorail (view) camera is always slower than setting up a folding (field) camera.

If you'll have no time problems when making nature/landscape photographies, when you use a camera for town/cityscapes photography, you must sometimes be very rapid to set up the camera and shot, because of traffic, photographic prohibitions etc.<br>

3) With moving subjects like people in a street, it is rather difficult to focus quietly on the groundglass. That's the reason why I use a rangefinder for quick focusing, sometimes handheld.<p>

My camera is a Linhof Master Technika.<br>

The camera is easy to carry and lightweight in comparison with a LE (the camera is "only" 2,6 kg (6 lb) without lens, nearly one half of the Horseman.<br>

It is also very quick to setup : open the drop-bed, insert the focusing cam, pull the lens standard out on the track, set the lens in place, and you're ready.<br>

Rangefinder focusing is rapid, easy and very accurate. <br>

For landscape and town photography, the camera movements are largely sufficient for depth-of-field control and perspective corrections. (Front : 30 degrees fwd. and bwd. tilt, and 55mm lens rise, rear swing/tilt 20 degrees - The maximum bellows extension is 430mm)<br>

You can use such a camera handheld, or on a monopod or on a tripod.<br>

The Technikardan is a very good camera, but for city photography, I think the folding field camera is better.<br>

If you persist in buying a monorail camera, the Technikardan will be in all respects more suited than the Horseman LE, which is a studio camera.<br>

[audidudi]

Don't let the naysayers discourage you from using a monorail design in the field, as I've been doing so for several years without any regrets. While I'm sure that I'd eventually master using indirect movements and base tilt, the ability to dial-in exactly what I want, with geared movements, is (IMO) well worth the drawbacks of carrying a few extra pounds and spending an extra minute or two setting up the camera. (And if you're able to hike with the camera fully assembled, as I often did, the difference in setup time between the two designs actually favors the monorail.)

 

That said, there's no point in recommending my particular setup to you, as the odds of yout being able to duplicate it (a modified Toyo 23G/45G combo that weighs just 8lbs) are remote ... unless you buy mine, of course. ;^)

 

FWIW, I'm presently using a Toyo 810G monorail design now (lightened to around 15lbs with a few mods and some minor machine work) and while I wouldn't want to (and generally don't) carry it very far, I have successfully taken it on short 2-3 mile hikes ... when shooting 8x10, though, it isn't the weight of the camera that's a problem so much as the weight of the film holders. My supplies bag (7 holders, meter, dark cloth, bottle of water, etc.) weighs almost 10lbs more than my camera does!

 

BTW, one thing I've noticed over the years, is that as I switch to larger formats, the angle of view of my favorite lenses keeps getting wider. My favorite 35mm lens was 85mm; with medium-format, it was 75mm; with 4x5, 127mm, and now with 8x10, it's 210mm. In fact, I'm likely going to sell my two other 8x10 lenses (300mm, 450mm) because it's literally been months since I last used them. I don't know if this quirk is true just of me, but keep it in mind when you're buying lenses for whatever 4x5 you ultimately choose.

[jean-louis llech]

<i>"Don't let the naysayers discourage you from using a monorail design in the field"</i> That's not very kind to say that.<br>

I do not intend at all to discourage anybody.<br>

I just do what everybody here is allowed to do : I give my opinion, which is not yet prohibited, even if it's different from yours, and I try to share my experience.<br>

[audidudi]

I'm sorry if you took offense, Jean-Louis, as it was not my intention to offend you nor anyone else holding the same opinion (scroll up a bit and check similar threads archived on photo.net, and you'll see that you are not alone in yours). :^)

[ken_lee11]

<i>"The Arca Swiss Discovery...is not as light as a field camera (the lensboards are huge, for one thing)"</i>

 

<p>Badger Graphics sells an after-market adapter which allows you to keep your lenses on Technika boards, for example, which are comparatively small and light. Arca Swiss makes one also, at a higher price.

 

<p>I have the Discovery and go for long walks with it. I use the case that comes with the camera, which is not for backpacking, but allows you to keep the camera assembled with lens on the camera. Setting it up is very easy and fast.

 

<p>Keep in mind that one of the tradeoffs inherent with smaller and lighter cameras, is that some of them require time and effort to set up and knock down. If you like to carry the camera around on the tripod, perhaps this issue is not a consideration, but if you intend to set up frequently, or suddenly, then give this some thought.

 

<p>My suggestion would be to get one camera for hiking, and another for architectural/studio use. Trying to squeeze one design into another makes for a compromise that you really don't have to make. Free yourself from the notion that one camera will be the be-all and end-all. Then you can get what you really want.

[sknowles]

I didn't mean to start a monorail versus field camera debate. I can understand both sides of the issue for each type, and agree for most of my interests a field camera will easily work. And I know working a field camera isn't all that hard, just slightly different than a monorail camera due to the movements. Right now I'm hedging toward a monorail because of the (more or less) independent control of movements between the front and back, and be able to use a range of lenses, 75mm to 300mm. I also know I will eventually have one of each once I get upward on the learning curve.

 

I still have a few models to look at (Sinar, Arca-Swiss isn't available locally). The initial choice of lenses is proving a "hmmm...". So far it's a 75mm, 90mm, 135mm, 180mm and 270-300mm, but only 2, maybe 3 to start. The rest will fall in after the lenses and camera. I really appreciate the views expressed, the diversity gives me the range of options available. I've learned from my 35mm system, which is far more extensive than I really need (but after 35 years what an you expect?), to keep my 4x5 system simple.