Here's a question for any Pentax 6x7 (and other 6x7) landscapers out there

[paul_frank]

I'm considering moving up to P67 from Nikon. My work is landscape,

typically with 24 and 50mm lenses. After reading about the many P67

shutter shake issues, and given the fact that 90% of my exposures seem

to fall between 1sec and 1/15sec, I am a little worried. I've

heard that MLU and a sandbag on top of the camera should negate

any shake problems, but about 75% of my shots are composed

vertically. Is it just not possible to shoot P67's at those shutter

speeds? Can it be done without a sandbag on the prism? what about

when the camera is flipped vertically? Should I go with a Mamiya RB67

since I shoot so much vertical? Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

Paul Frank

[ellis_vener_photography]

You don't need a sandbag at those speeds unless you are

photographing in a 1oo mph wind. That is just silly. I 've done it

with a pentax 67 and a 200mm lens and mirror lock up and a

good cable release (I prefer Linhof ) will take care of it. Verticals

are definitely not a problem. I made a suite of 80+ images, all

enlarged to 20" x24" prints a couple of years ago for a client, of

landscapes, gardens, fountains. Most (95%) were shot with a

Pentax 67 and 55, 90mm and 200mm lenses. i never lost a

frame due to any image blur from camera shake. I mounted the

camera on a Gitzo 323 tripod with an Arca-Swiss B1 Monoball

head.

[john_macpherson]

Paul - I think the P67 more suitable for field use than the RB. I

have used the P67 for years.

<P>

I was never happy with longer lenses on the body I have, not as

sharp as I would have liked (even with a heavy tripod and good

head, and good technique). My friend with same set-up was

delighted with his. Personal taste & experience. YMMV

<P>

For vertical use it is fine, I have no problems doing it.

<P>

I only use the P67 with one wideangle lens - the 55mm. If you

regard 67 as a scaled down 4x5 and use appropriate technique

(rather than using it as a scaled up 35mm) you will get

astonishing results. Like Ellis I have had BIG enlargements

made from this body/lens combo - up to 4 feet wide, and the

quality is excellent.

<P>

Camera is also tough as an old boot - mine has put up with a lot

of abuse and delivers faultlessly. The meter is great too.

<P>

http://www.john-macpherson-photography.com

<P>

<P>

[roberto_manderioli]

Paul,

I made the same step you are planning to make and never had regretted it. Large prints from P67 are outstanding. With the lenses you are planning to use you don't need a monster tripod at all. As said by other posters proper technique must be used to achieve good results.

At those speeds I hang a weight underneath the tripod in order to dampen vibrations.

I also have used this camera handheld with 55 and 75 lenses at 1/125 -1/250 with excellent results. After a bit of practice I can flip the mirror up even handheld since the switch is so conveniently placed.

Outdoor landscape with quick action is the realm of this dino-camera.

But if you want the very best for landscape and you are already planning to use a tripod all the time go straight to 4x5 .

Happy new year

[tom_bowling1664874721]

I use a 4x5, but the technique's the same. Surely the sandbag goes under the camera, not on top. And it can be water rather than sand if it's more convenient. A camelback, for example. Hang it from the centre column. I have this vision of the photographer lifting the bag, adjusting a bit, putting it down, lifting the bag, adjusting a bit, putting it down...

[dermot_conlan3]

Buy a Mamiya RZ shoot at whatever speed you want and carry a lighter tripod.

[joe_oliva]

I am always amused when this thread re-surfaces from time to time. I think all these shake issues are way over rated. I've used the Pentax 67 for about 10 years now, 90% hand held, and often times in jet fighter type aircraft doing air to air shoots. My standard size print is 16x20 inches. My biggest problem is quickly and accurately focusing.

 

For your landscape work, use a tripod, and lock the mirror up and you'll be fine. Often times I wonder if the folks who whine about this ever create images worth keeping in the first place.

 

All the Best,

 

Joe Oliva

[jeff_drew4]

I generally use an old Gitzo Studex with large Gitzo ball-head - no problemo! Whenever real slow speeds are needed, I use MLU, otherwise I guts it out and usually win. Proper shutter release technique, handheld, is fine too. Actually, I am more conscious of shakes with my Minox and 35mm stuff because of the lack of weight and stability. BTW: I use mostly 45mm & 75mm on my P67. For macro work I am more likely to use more care. My lighter duty Manfrotto rig has also supported the P67 w/45mm - no problems. The P67 Takumar SMC lenses are quite nice, and for scenics etc, the rig is outstanding. There are quite a few coffee table books filled with photos from pros using P67. I'm a happy camper with it!

[trooper]

Thanks Joe!

 

I've let myself lay in the weeds too long on this issue and I'm glad you stood up and said what needed to be said.... I use the same, heavy pod if I'm doing projects that will likely be enlarged much and whether I'm using a Fuji RF or P67 equipment. When time permits and the situation is appropriate, I certainly use MLU and take every precaution to maximize extracting everything I can from the equipment. On the other hand, when forced to shoot handheld, braced as well as possible, I've been very happy with the results and don't feel I'm giving anything up which is measurable with the P67. Good technique helps greatly and reasonable care should be taken, but the P67 reputation is much maligned in this regard.

 

I believe (me included) that we would improve our work more by doing more of it and perfecting technique than perseverating and hand-wringing over hair-splitting equipment issues. I love the equipment discussions and enjoy accumulating knowledge of features of design in our tools, but sometimes it takes on an unnecessarily defensive, loyalty based sort of air to the discussions. I�ve watched friends and acquaintances literally �see� additional performance where it truly didn�t exist as part of the nature of rationalizing an expensive equipment purchase. They were so pre-sold on the commitment to the purchase that they couldn�t see anything but what they had pre-programmed themselves to expect. I�ve spent way too much time on lens tests and such over the years. What had really come out of this testing is the realization that if the shot didn�t work as expected or wasn�t as sharp as I hoped, it was normally from something I did as the photographer and not something blamed to equipment shortcomings.

[scott_laughlin]

Sometimes reitteration is the best way to make a point. I made the exact same switch some years ago and never had a problem with shutter shake. Moreover, the RZ's mirror is the exact same size and would be succeptable to the same issues. Flipping the camera on it's side for verticals is a bit of a pain in the studio, but for field work it was never a problem for me. I used it on a Bogen with a ball head and a RRS plate. The RRS plate does a real nice job of holding the camera secure wrapping around the mirror box. Definitly worth the investment. You'll never be sorry with this setup.

[sal_santamaura]

I use a P67 with 55, 75 and 135 lenses for landscape on a Gitzo 1325/Arca B-1/RRS plate combination. Never a shutter shake problem at your shutter shake speeds of concern, vertical or horizontal. I don't bother with a cable release; just lock up the mirror, hold the camera in your hands (as if it were hand held) and press down on the tripod while squeezing the release. As a bonus, you'll have one less item - - a cable release - - to carry.

[alberto pastorelli]

Paul, go to the shop and compare.....

The P67 has a BIG shutter, and many found it shakes the camera expecially in the range of times between 1/30 to 1/2.... (by the way if you do landscape these times are really common due to the closed f/stop...)

On the other side lies the cameras like Bronica GS-1 amd Mamyia RB-RZ that works with a vibration/free leaf shutter (I've decided to change my P67 , times ago , for a wondeful Bronica GS-1 and I'm happy with it, now)

Anyway, I also remember that someone made a "report" regarding the vertical vibration of a P67 (it was a really nice "scientific" report, I remember) . Do a research on photo.net about it....

 

regards and Merry Christmass

Alberto

[eric friedemann]

First, I would agree with those posters that take the position that the vibration you need to concern yourself with on the P67 series cameras in time exposures comes from the mirror. Use the mirror lock-up feature and you'll be fine.

 

Second, I shoot Mamiya RZ and have two suggestions that I find helpful for scenic and architectural photography: a. a grid focusing screen that helps even up horizon lines; and b. a Bogen 3275/410 compact geared head. The 410 is really compact and gives you fine control geared movement in three directions, pan, tilt and side to side tilt. The head is a joy to use for precision framing.

[vartan_grigorian]

Hello Paul,

 

I think that most of the vibration is due to the mirror return at the end of the exposure. This means that it will not affect the image. I can believe that there might be a minor problem with shutter induced vibration, but nothing that using an appropriate tripod will not tame (this will be needed to get the best out of any MF camera). I only have the 75 and 135 mm lenses but I am happy with the results. As long as you don't need fast flash sync. I think you will be happy with a P 67. I prefer its simplicity (no dark slides, interlocks etc. to worry about) and 35 mm like handling compared to the 'Blad 500 C/M that I have also tried. At sensible shutter speeds I find it easier to hand-hold than 'Blad form cameras. The cameras and lenses are also some of the best value MF equipment around. I confess that I have not looked at the Bronica GS-1 which is not popular (I don't know why), but may still be a good option. The Mamiya RB/RZ though probably excellent is too big and slow to use for my taste.

 

In any case I would still keep your Nikon (I have), as 35 mm still excels for action, long lenses and high magnification macro. If you are not going for prints >12x16" also consider 654 SLR's.

 

Regards,

 

Vartan

[alberto pastorelli]

yes, the most of the vibrations come from the "slap" of the mirror

(first time you use the P67 you'll remain shocked from the movement, and the rumour, of the camera when you release the shutter..!)

But these vibrations doesn't affect the quality of the photo, because the shutter was closed few instants before.

So, rising up the mirror doesn't solve the problem...

The problem of vibrations come from the SHUTTER (the opening phase...)

 

My personal thought, is that "some" P67 have good dampening system, others not. That's why some photographer claims "no problem" and other the contrary.

When I owned a P67, I had this kind of problem, because my enlargement where no crisp like the other I make with other system.

So, I searched in literature and find others with the same problems.

(And I obviously used to shoot with mirror lock up and a cable release.)

Now. with a leaf shutter system, I only concentrate myself about composition, light, ....etc. etc. and I never have again problems of vibrations.

sincerly

Alberto

[vartan_grigorian]

Please; I'm not trying to start a flame war, but all P67's have essentially the same shutter. The momentum of the shutter curtains is going to be the same. Unless the acceleration is lower they will cause the same reaction force on the camera. I therefore seriously doubt if there is much variation from camera to camera.

[jeff_drew4]

FWIW: the new P67II has an even better shutter dampening scheme comparatively. I agree with Alberto's comments on leaf shutter vs. focal plane - but one is always compromising on features. A proper mount and the vertical shots are not an issue. Just to fan the flames a bit, a Hassy may be a great choice, since 6x6cm shots can be framed either way . . .

[paul_frank]

Thanks for all the great help, everyone. I'll be renting a P67 rig for a weekend real soon, and I guess then I'll truly see for myself. Here's another question - I use a Bogen 3021N tripod w/ the Bogen 410 low-profile head. Is this enough tripod for the task? I will only be using 55 and 90~110 mm lenses. I rarely extend the tripod legs any more than I have to to get the shot. Since I don't plan on buying a new tripod just to rent a camera for a weekend, other than the obvious(hanging weights, etc) what additional methods (if anything) would be necessary to secure the camera? THanks!

 

Paul Frank

[cowan stark]

A couple of things to add from a relatively happy P67 user. One method to dampen the vibration is to take a bungee cord and hook one end to your bootlace, the other to the center column and step down. A poor man's image stabilizer system. Not recommended if you're stalking wildlife...and need to make a run for it. I've tried it, but I can't say I've noticed a huge difference.

 

Kirk Enterprises makes an Arca Swiss style "L" bracket which makes shooting verticals a whole lot easier especially using a lighter tripod like the Bogen 3021. Swinging that baby over on its side for verticals can get pretty unstable if you're not careful.

[patrick_drennon]

Paul, your tripod is plenty for the 55 and shouldn't be any

problem with the zoom either.

[patrick_drennon]

oops.........I thought you listed the short zoom, didn't make since

after I posted since it starts @ 55, missed the reference. Tripod'll

be fine for either.

[scott_jorgenson1]

I've been a P67II owner since 1999. My lenses are the 55-100mm zoom, the 135mm "macro", and the 200mm near-telephoto. The following is my experience, starting with some generalities in the hopes of making what I am saying clear, and thus avoiding needless flames.<p>

 

My experience is that with all cameras, shutter-induced vibration (which is all I'm talking about here - I'm assuming mirror lockup with proper technique) at least <i>theoretically</i> can exist. Whether it actually affects your image depends on:<p>

 

<ul>

<li>the magnification of your final image relative to the amplitude of the vibration

<li>the duration of the vibration relative to the exposure time

<li>the success of your camera support at dampening the duration and/or amplitude of the vibration

</ul>

 

Different camera systems fall along a spectrum, or curve, of responsiveness to these factors, ranging from "blissful" to "finicky". The Pentax 645, for example, is pretty "blissful" in my experience, being able to take high magnification and relatively flimsy support at all shutter speeds, even without mirror lockup.<p>

 

How does the P67II stack up? Again in my experience, the P67II is by far the most "finicky" and vibration-prone of any camera I have used (Pentax 645 and various Nikon bodies). High magnifications, lighter-weight tripod/head support systems, and mid-range shutter speeds that those other camera systems would handle with aplomb are problematic for the P67II.<p>

 

However, this P67II finickiness can be controlled completely by choosing an appropriate camera support, without having to sacrifice any shutter speeds or magnification, and without having to resort to impromptu jury-rigging ala sandbags, suspended camera packs, etc. Be especially careful (or lucky :-) about getting the right support, and P67II shutter vibration will never be an issue - that's been my experience.<p>

 

For example, I use the Gitzo G1548 "heavy" carbon fiber tripod ("heavy" relative to carbon-fiber 'pods, but still only 6 pounds or so) with the G1572M "heavy" 3-way head. With this combination I never experience any shutter-induced blur under any conditions.<p>

 

As a contrary example, I previously used the Bogen (Manfrotto) 3021 medium-weight aluminum tripod with the 3030 medium-weight 3-way head. With this combination, I consistently encountered ruined images, due to shutter-induced blur, with the 200mm lens, at all shutter speeds from 1/2 to 1/30 second, when the camera was in a horizontal position (interestingly, when tilted vertically, but otherwise under exactly the same conditions, the blur would disappear - I have a theory as to why, but that's another topic). I also experienced blur with the 135mm lens in the same horizontal orientation, but at only about 1/15 second. The vibration with the Bogen rig and the P67II was somewhat (meaning not completely) controlled by putting heavy sandbags on top of the camera prism (eg, totalling 10 pounds or more), but it was a delicate and cumbersome arrangement.<p>

 

As a final data point, I also toyed with Gitzo's heaviest aluminum tripod (G500 I think) at one point, and it seemed to take care of the vibration about as well as the carbon-fiber Gitzo did (I used the same Gitzo magnesium head with both trials). But this heavy aluminum tripod was too heavy for me, and I ended up going with the carbon fiber 'pod that I use today.<p>

 

So, that's been my experience. My recommendation would be to consider your camera support carefully, and be prepared perhaps to explore different combinations of tripod and head (I had the benefit of a gracious salesman at the local professional camera store, who allowed me to try a few combos before buying anything).<p>

 

Hope this helps.<p>

[victor_randin]

I agree with the above. Just two cents to add from me. The P67 has a classic Leica-type shutter with horizontally moving curtains. The shutter speed is determined with the width of the vertical split being between the first curtain and the second one. The width of the split depends on what speed is set on the shutter speed disk. So, the wider the split travelling along the film gate the slower the shutter speed and vice versa. Since the flash sync speed is set, the width of split is equal to the long side of the film gate. As the shutter speed vibration induces with the first curtain� impact, so the �shift of the image� (in other words: the unsharp area) appears within the width of the split only. The shorter speed the narrower the unsharp area that is equal to the vertical split. Beginning from flash sync 1/30 and slower you risk getting the whole unsharp picture (with no tripod).

[paul_owen]

Paul, You will be hard pushed to find a 6x7 camera better suited to outdoor work than the P67. Get yourself a 45mm and use the mirror lock-up.

[anthony_harrison]

This is the kind of question that makes me say to myself, Oh God, here we go again... The short answer is try a P67 for yourself and try something different too - specifically a Mamiya RZ. A lot of people, including myself, are just never going to be persuaded by what others say because our own experience has been radically different from theirs, and when I see people writing that "the P67 shake problem is vastly over-rated" or that photographers who "whine" about the P67 can't take good pictures anyway, it is tempting to dismiss them as idiots. But it's Christmas and one must be nicer than usual.

I could talk at length about the stupidity of having to carry sand (or water, forsooth!) bags into the field, or about my extensive tests of two P67 bodies on a heavy tripod indicating significant inherent shake, but what the hell... I use a Mamiya RZ professionally, and not only do the leaf shutters (coupled with MLU of course) simply do away with shake considerations, but the revolving back eliminates the absurd fumblings required to flop a P67 body on its side. Then there's the Polaroid back question... The big Pentax is a beautiful camera, and I'd love to put one on my windowsill to look at all day. But in use? Give me the RZ. In the area of interiors photography (in the UK at least) the majority of photographers I know of use either Hasselblad or RZ. I know of nobody using a P67 for this. There has to be a good reason. And the RZ handles just as well for landscapes.

Do try hard to persuade someone to let you test a P67 alongside something else, seriously. Whatever feels best for you, buy it. I swear I'm not getting involved in one of these discussions again...