New Tri-X and PMK Pyro

[paul_brenner1]

For what it's worth, here are some reactions and results from using

the new Tri-X (120 400) and PMK Pyro:

 

1. As near as I can tell, cutting back development by about 10%

seems about right. I'm somewhat vague here because the film looks

different enough, including staining, that it's hard to make a

precise comparison. (And since I don't have any old Tri-X left, I

can't do a "side-by-side" comparison.)

 

2. Staining is WAY different. As has been mentioned many times on

this forum, the old Tri-X and HP5+ stain beautifully. If I follow

the same procedures as I did with the old Tri-X, the stain is

minimal. With the old Tri-X, I'd use a water stop-bath, acid rapid

fix and, even with no rinse before the Pyro soak, I'd get all the

stain I could ask for with 2-3 minutes in the Pyro. With the new Tri-

X, I do several rinses after the fix, then soak in Pyro for at least

5 minutes. (Before folks point out that I should use an alkaline

fix, I've tried that, and the results are the same as rinsing after

using acid rapid-fix.) The stain is close to the old Tri-X in

intensity, but is somewhat brownish rather than that beautiful

green. Maybe there's no printing difference, but I sure loved the

LOOK of the old Tri-X negs. Maybe I'll switch to HP5+

 

I'd be curious to hear what experiences others have had with the new

Tri-X 120 400 and PMK Pyro.

 

Paul

[tim_curry]

Acid fixer with a depleted pyro after-bath is not really conducive to image stain. Try an alkaline fix and no pyro soak after fixing. The acid fix is stripping out the stain from pyro (back to normal development). The pyro after-bath is adding general stain, not image stain. The net result will be muddy shadows and increased printing time with no real benefits from the pyro.

 

Just because the film shows a general color of one hue or another, there is no guarantee of image stain. General stain just reduces contrast.

[photojim]

Don't assume that the lack of an obvious or deep stain is a bad thing. Pan-F Plus barely stains at all but it prints beautifully. Print first, judge after. :)

[arne_strasser]

Yep - print it first. Or better yet, switch to Pyrocat HD. I rate TRI-X at 800 and get negs that are just great to print.

[mrose]

I thought that using rapid fixer (Kodak) with out adding the hardener will not degrade the stain.

Also, I recently heard that it is no longer recommended to soak after fixing. Any one knows of any references to subject?

 

Thanks

[tim_curry]

-M-

 

The last I heard, using Kodak R/F without the hardener is acceptable, as without the acid, it won't remove the pyro stain after initial development.

The first I had heard mention of not soaking in depleted PMK came from someone who posted after a seminar with Gordon H. this summer. He is now saying that the afterbath is not necessary, does not help image quality and can reduce contrast. If you think about it, it does make sense.

 

Since the desirable pyro stain is involved with the actual silver particles in the emulsion, any stain which is not directly surrounding the silver is just a "general" stain, like a fog. The effect of general stain is to actually make the film somewhat cloudy and tends to reduce contrast. This will be most evident in areas of less silver, or shadows, where the separation of small values needs to be as great as possible (to maintain contrast within the shadow itself). This is why an acid fixer and the afterbath tends to reduce contrast in the shadow areas.

 

The only way to find out is to try it with development of two films. Take two identical shots and develop them differently. I think you will be able to see a very subtle difference in the shadow values. This is not to say that you can't get good prints any other way, but if you are trying for the best possible print, this will be as good as it gets with PMK.

 

Now with ABC pyro you will be able to........

[garrylewis747]

In another list, APUG, a workshop attendee posted that Gordon now reccomends not to use the afterbath. He now says that if you use a water rinse ,instead of stopbath, and use an alkaline fixer (TP-3 or TP-4) -you don't need an afterbath and the stain is increased by the washing(as long as it's not acid biased).

[paul_brenner1]

Thanks to everyone for their great comments (not that there won't be more come)!

 

Thanks for the heads-up that Gordon is now not recommending the afterbath.

 

Tim mentioned that rapid fix is ok because "without the acid...". I assume that standard rapid fix is indeed acidic, but that the reason it may be ok is simply that the shorter fixing time doesn't (supposedly) results in less impact on the stain. As I've indicated, I've always gotten beautiful stains with Tri-X and HP5+ using rapid fix; notwithstanding that, I will be trying alkaline fixer again.

 

Paul

[mrose]

So what about ABC Pyro? What will I be able to do?

 

In Photographers' Formulary web site it says that ABC Pyro is designed for rotary and tubes, and specifically mentions it not to be for trays, "This formula however does not perform well in tray development because it produces a strong silver image with very little stain."

 

Also, since I have already a number of films done in PMK with 2 minutes afterbath, can I now reduce this general soak?

 

Thanks again.

[tim_curry]

-M-

 

Stick with what you have with the PMK you have already exposed and developed. There has been some talk of enhancements after film has dried, but it can get pretty involved and requires a lot of time in experimentation. Just think of your older PMK film as the step in learning you must make on this path to knowledge. It is still good film and, if exposed and developed properly, will print very well.

 

The ABC pyro you can buy over the counter I have never used. If you go to Michael & Paula's site, you will find complete directions for the formula I am using now for azo printing. The advantage with ABC is a nearly clear film with no apparent stain. The only evidence of stain is the dark look which the silver image itself has. It looks more like regular film, but is slightly different in color. Upon closer inspection, the structure of the film shows a very sharp image, almost "etched" into the film. Because there is no fogging from general stain, shadow values are enhanced and separation is very good in the mid tones.

 

The stain still works as it does with PMK, but it is more subtle and acutance is better. The trade-off is that there is no masking of grain so larger grain is more clearly visible. With contact printing this is a non-issue. Film speed is reduced.

 

Contact me off-list if you have further questions and I'll be glad to answer what I can. tim