Apology

[Carl Stone]

It has been brought to my attention that some of my remarks, are considered by

some readers, to be insulting. Please be advised that I've not ever intended to insult

anyone in this forum by posting my opinions. If I wanted to insult someone, there

would be no doubt about it whatsoever, my intentons would be plain for all to see, so

that there would be no misunderstanding, and I would freely admit it. If some folks

are offended by my opinions, then that is an issue for them to deal with. However,

this attitude is not considered an acceptable one in this forum, so the rule is that in

order that nobody should take offense, remarks should be tempered to that end. It

isn't really necessary for me to agree, or disagree, with that condition, but it is

necessary for me to obide by the rules. Having said all of this, I want to offer my

apologies to any and all who may have any suffered discomfort due to my rhetoric.

Actually it's best that I avoid anything where my opinion may be taken in a manner

other than what was intended. So, I will not be sharing my opinions with this forum. I

will be asking questions, and offering facts, as well as pointing to the opinions of

other people.

 

I trust that this will resolve any problems, and prevent further occurrence of past

issues.

[spencer_hahn]

Are you saying I'm too sensitive?!?! How rude!

[ShunCheung]

In this forum, we offer our opinions all the time, such as debating whether a particular lens is "good" or "sharp." Or in image critique, whether you like a particular image or not. That is perfectly fine. However, if it evolves into personal attack, it becomes a problem. For example, if one comments that someone who likes an inexpensive 3rd-party lens must be "an idiot," that would be unacceptable.

 

About a year ago, someone posted to the Nature Forum and wanted ideas about a career in nature photography. It turns out that this person was female and had 5 children. Quickly there were comments that this person must be an unfit mother because it would be impossible to pursue a career in photography while taking care of 5 kids. I would say that is totally out of line. For one thing we don't even know how old those children were. This could have been a middle-aged woman with grown children.

 

I hope Carl and everybody else would use some common sense when they post and avoid personal attacks. Believe me, it is not that difficult.

[elliot]

I am not aware of any specific incidents you may be referring to, but it seems like there are always those one or two people who are offended by anything and everything. You can't please everyone. Those people are idiots.

[Palouse]

Carl, like Elliot ". . .I am not aware of any specific incidents you may be referring to.." but I don't believe most us post for civility (though we may expect it)--we post for honest, candid opinions. That said--please continue to be honest and candid!

[EricM]

Carl, I don't want to see you change...too much. You're one of the personalities around here; like the trouble makers on the back of the bus, I find it more refreshing than sitting on your hands in the library. Or maybe it's because I agree, only idiots put third party lenses on an F5. Thanks.

[ShunCheung]

There is a very simple reason that most of you are not even aware of some of the recent offensive remarks: we do not tolerage them in this forum and they are deleted promptly as us moderators see them.

[dan_andrews]

Carl,

 

I don't always agree with you, but I appreciate your opinions a great deal. I

would respectfully ask that you continue to share your opinions about Nikon

equipment, as well as your experience, your knowledge, and the opinions of

others.

[chris haake]

I don't know what many of these comments were or who they were aimed at. However, I'm seeing that many of the above posters are missing the point: opinions and experience are great, but being offensive about it is not. Two entirely seperate issues.

[EricM]

Chris, it's about taking offence from opinions...about people taking offence from a monitor, about people that are a bit too serious, and about people that should be out shooting and not typing!

[Carl Stone]

"There is a very simple reason that most of you are not even aware of some of the

recent offensive remarks: we do not tolerage them in this forum and they are deleted

promptly as us moderators see them."

 

And it need go no further than this, from a forum management position. However, I

would edit your words to read "perceived offensive remarks". It is of course your

choice to define it any way that suits you, but nobody is bound to agree, only to

comply. Some people wear their sensitivities on their sleeve, and virtually live to be

offended. So all others are faced with the choice of letting them have thier way, or to

be disignated an some sort of pariah. There is a lot of good info here in this forum,

so some self control is warranted in order not to be blocked from it. But do not be

mislead into thinking that politcal correctness rules the day beyond the reach of this

forum. Of all of the rights that man may enjoy, absolutely nobody has the right not to

be offended. That is a personal problem, and not the concern of the majority. We may

have to comply, but we do not have to agree with it. This is the state that we find

ourselves in due to political correctness, and has nothing to do with reason or

propriety.

[ShunCheung]

Carl, if you feel that the problem is some "political correctness" issue and you didn't do anything wrong, I strongly suggest that you retract your apology. An apology that is not sincere is meaningless. Photo.net has its rules; Todd Peach and I have some basic guidelines to run this forum such as no personal attacks. If you don't agree with us, you can either (1) complain to higher authorities in photo.net and have us removed or at least change the policy or (2) move to other forums. There are some of photo forums that are not moderated where people flame one another day after day. I rarely visit those forum myself.

 

I recently found out that even at Phil Askey's dpreview.com fourms, where discussions seem to be a lot crazier than ours here, some person who kept bashing Nikon and instigating Canon vs. Nikon flame wars was banned there. Most forums have some rules. If you don't like them, get them changed or move on.

[Carl Stone]

The issue is that some opinions are called "personal attacks" when they are not any

such thing. You mentioned earlier about calling people "idiots", which I've not done.

All criticism is not a "personal attack." When I strongly disagree with someone's

actions, or the lack of them, and point out my opinion, some take that to mean a

personal attack, when it clearly is not. There is a definite difference, but some folks

can't seem to understand that. This is exactly the reason that I said that I would not

be offering my opinion any longer. It is not a case of not being insincere, it is a case

of perception. Being blunt is not a fault, it's as valid a way to communicate as any

other.

[EricM]

The biggest insult is to sift and filter your thoughts in order to please everyone. Or rather, not upset anyone. This �sensitive� thing is out of hand. Why people think they have an expectation to feel comfortable is beyond me. To journey around life, and especially an internet forum, and feel that interaction should be a bed of roses, is ridiculous. One often has an opportunity to learn about themselves when a sore spot is twitched. Take advantage of it. The best place not to be offended is in a sterile and homogenized environment, like your living room. Stay there.

[ShunCheung]

Carl, bottomline is that if you don't sincerely feel that you have done something wrong, you should not apologize. So do you feel that you did something wrong? This should be a very simple yes or no answer.

 

Reglardless of how Todd and I run this forum, there will always be people who are happy and unhappy about it. I have been accused multiple times that I unfaily tolerate Carl's out-of-line posts, both in the fourm and in private e-mail. I told those people that if they are unhappy with the way Todd and I run this forum, it is their choice to move on to other forums. And that is exactly what I am going to tell you, any one of you, also. Another option is to get Todd and I replaced; that option is on the table as well.

[mike_morgan1]

I am touched by sincere apologies. It is good to see somebody own their own behavior, admit that it is wrong, and publicly declare an intention to repent and turn away from such behavior.

 

But, you have admitted no wrong, only declared that although you will turn away from the behavior, it is others who have the problem.

 

>>>If some folks are offended by my opinions, then that is an issue for them to deal with. <<<

 

So, I am not touched.

[rhaytana__tim_adams_]

As a regular visitor here, I'm grateful for the effort to edit out the more mean-spirited comments. Mr. Stone, this isn't intended a reflection on your writing; I haven't noticed your name in this respect, one way or the other. I'm writing it here only because it's the first chance I've seen to comment on online forum etiquette without going way off topic.

 

I have participated in online communities since the days of BBSing and PC Pursuit. Most users are polite. Some are exceptionally generous with their time. (At least once, knowledgeable photo.net users have saved me from sending my Nikon in for repairs it didn't need.) But there has always been a small but destructive number who consistently write insulting, belittling responses to the most innocent questions, driving away newcomers and making other users feel small for daring to admit that they don't already know something or want to find something out. I think that users of this type can do harm far out of proportion to their number. Who wants to feel stupid for not already knowing what type of lens to buy or metering to use? The easiest 'solution' is to just go away.

 

True, sometimes users ask questions that have been answered elsewhere a dozen times. I don't need to answer. (In my case, I usually don't know the answer anyway! An expert I'm not.) I also can remind myself that I was once brand new to photography, too.

 

Shun Cheung, thank you for your efforts to monitor the forum.

[todd peach seattle, washi]

To be fair, Carl's remarks never rise to the level of 'cross-burning' or anything where 99% of those who read them would be offended.

 

The challenge to the moderators is that Carl often will be the blunt, plain-spoken guy who will say things that will offend perhaps a third of the people who are listening (I'm totally guessing at the numbers, just the way it 'feels' from my niche). If he said them to my face at a cocktail party, I'd probably give my wife a 'look' and we'd simply drift to another group. (Or if he was verbally abusing a teacher with, "... and that's what's wrong with education in this country today..." I'd probably drag the teacher away too.)

 

As moderators, we're tasked with trying to make the forum welcoming and informative to all who desire to be here. We have found that it is easier to 'nip these comments in the bud' before the offended people turn it into a full-blown flame war. It's the easy way out for us. It keeps the forum humming 24 hours a day without a constant hand on the tiller (we both have 'day jobs', and are not compensated for moderating).

 

Speaking for myself, if Brian and the elves (or whoever makes these ultimate decisions) decided that 'dysfunctional family feud' should be the order of the day in the Nikon forum at photo.net, I would not only bow out as moderator, I'd probably drop my participation as well. It sets my teeth on edge to see the crap that goes on on usenet and other 'wide open' forums.