How to start a gifted 17-year old in photograpahy?

[christopher_engeler]

My neighbor's 17-year old foreign exchange student from Japan is

beginning to express the Japanese gene for love of photography. She

has taken some really nice photos with point and shoot type cameras.

We would like to get her started in the right direction and I was

consulted because of my (excessive) camera collecting. In my opinion,

the best teaching tool available would be a digital SLR, but that is

out of here reach for now. A film-based SLR would therefore be my

recommendation, and here we have many very attractive options:

a) I would advise against an "orphaned" system such as Canon FD or

Minolta becasue of the steady drop of digital SLR prices which will,

sooner or later, become obtainable even on a student's budget.

b) That leaves us with used or new Pentax or Nikon manual focus, or

Canon EOS Rebel. I would suggest a manual focus body, preferably new

with warranty and this leads me to the Pentax ZX-M. Is that a good

choice? It is such an inexpensive camera that I'd rather see her get

a new one with warranty rather than preowned.

c) Lens: I'd say no to a kit lens or zoom, but would suggest one or

two primes: 50mm/35 or 28mm/ and a short telephoto lens (for

portraits which she has a good eye for). Or should it be a kit lens

and one prime or two to three inexpensive primes.

Budget: let's try to stay below $300 for all of this.

Price survey: ZX-M $190 for 50mm/f2.0 kit, $210 with 35-80mm zoom

lens kit.

Thanks for your input!

[hique]

Seems a very nice deal. Since digital cameras are out of the budget, film based cameras with manual control such as those from pentax and nikon seem very good.

 

I would get her primes, 85mm and 35mm for instance, but I guess that would be out of the budget.

 

A zoom can't be that bad also.

[douglas_green1]

I disagree with your premise about avoiding the "orphaned" systems like Canon FD and Minolta MD mount, and I'll add the Olympus OM system into the mix. New Equipment depreciates so fast that there would not be any genuine savings whatsoever in doing this. If she gets the right film gear to nurture her interest, So that she can delay her entry to digital for even 6 months, her savings will be FAR greater once she enters the digital world than the loss of value on her early Film system.

 

The fact is, she will be able to get an extremely useable learning system like a Minolta X-500/570 WITH a 2-3 outstanding primes for under $200. She should simply view this as an investment in her future. When she's ready to drop $1000 or so on a digital investment, I am quite sure that the initial $200 which she spent here, would be better preserved than if she dropped $100+ more getting Nikon or Pentax MF gear, which would be far less useable on the digital systems that these vendors produce. The savings is a false economy. Get the best film-based system her budget warrants now, and plan on her getting the best digital system her budget would warrant at the time she is ready.

 

NONE of the vendors any longer have ANY commitment to future compatibility, except for Nikon at the ultra pro level, which will never be cost effective for anyone OTHER than working pros.

[mattalofs]

What Doug said. The 'orphaned' systems are the way to go with this kind of budget particularly when you figure that she will probably be able to recoup $150 of that $200 by selling that stuff back when she wants to move to digital. Some specific suggestions:

 

from www.ritzcam.com

 

Canon, AE-1 (black) w/50mm f1.4 FD #1398xxx (9+) $239 Canon,

 

AE-1 Program w/50mm f1.8 #2077xxx (9-) $155

 

Olympus, OM-1 (blk) w/50mm f1.8 (recent CLA) #580xxx (9-) $215

 

Pentax, K1000 w/50mm f2.0 #6341xxx (10-) $195 Minolta,

 

X-370 w/50mm f2.0 MD (recent CLA) #8716xxx (10-) $155 \

 

Minolta, X-700 w/50mm f1.7 MD #2383xxx (9-) $159

 

You could do practically the same stuff at www.keh.com as well. Great prime lenses in all of these systems are being sold for practically nothing.

 

m

[stemked]

Christopher,

 

The ZX-M is a true EXCELLENT choice. One thing that makes this a good choice is that the ZX-M comes with a depth of view preview button. When I teach nature photography to College students I really try to push them into cameras with this function. That way you can make a determination what REALLY is in focus and what is not.

 

I also respectfully agree with your mount choice. I might personally look at Canon EOS and Nikons, but their budget SLRs while containing a lot more features, are not as solidly built as the low end Pentax's. I find the new Minolta budget Maxium mounts simply encourage auto-settings (my student experience anyway). I have a deep fondness for Olympus and Canon FDs as well but find it increasingly hard to recommend them to students because they simply tend to like newer cameras.

 

I might only take exception to the first lens you are looking into. The 50mm f2 A isn't a bad lens, but there are used better options. If you can pick up the 50mm f1.7 A or even better an f1.4 (50mm M or A lens)lenses these are typically nicer lenses to choose from especially if she will be mostly handholding the camera. The Pentax FA and F versions of lenses are autofocus and while they will work fine, they have VERY narrow focusing rings and spin too freely to be as much fun to use.

 

The nice thing about the Pentax 50mm lenses also is that they use 49mm filters, which are pretty cheap. An easy to find lens that is also 49mm filter would be the 28mm f2.8 M or 28mm f2.8 A lens. The 35mm f2.8 also use 49mm filters but they tend to be harder to find.

 

A 'Super Cool' lens for this camera to consider is the 40mm f2.8 pancake, that maybe out of your range, but it is soooo tiny that I suspect she will really find it neat. It also uses the 49mm filter-I wouldn't recommend it if you are going to go with a 50mm lenses as these focal lengths are too close.

 

The standard 35-80mm f ?-5.6 A is not a particularly nice lens/fun although it will do in a pinch. You can get them used super cheap, I suspect under $40.

 

By the way, you might think carefully about warrentees for this camera. Since she will be headed back to Japan (I presume) with this camera a US warrentee will actually be a problem for her. You might want to get a Grey Market camera (the warrentee won't be particully useful in the US though if something happend here). Typically these cameras are cheaper anyway.

 

Sounds like you are an awfully nice neighbor. Great to hear there are people like you out there spreading such kindness around the world.

[phyrpowr]

Practically any 35mm slr, a 50mm lens, and a basic photography course at a local school, museum, studio, etc. is the best investment

[watchin]

An alternative to look at... A TLR ?

That type of camera teaches you composition, framing, incamera croping

allows you to see what you are shooting when you pull the trigger. They are generally rugged, give complete control, work extremely well in low light, are simple and less complicated.

 

An old example is the YashicaMat 124+. I haven't used one of the Seagull

replicas but I'd look at the 109 (that's the one with build in match needle meter and in finder info display I believe). The quality of 2 1/4 negatives will allow her to do outstanding prints.

 

In addition you can get a new one for under $250, which leaves enough

for a auto-flash ($40), case ($50), and tele/wide aux lens ($150) as well.

 

35mm is not the only answer ... just playing devils advocate...

[ron c]

Douglas Green is perfectly correct!

 

 

Ron Crowder

[tito sobrinho]

If she's really very interested in photography I'll go one step further from Mr. Moody. I would be bold and suggest a 4x5 with a 6x7, 6x9 back. This way, she'll learn the purest way to photograph. Oterwise, she should stay with her PS camera.

[peter_evans4]

<p>A 4X5 would indeed be a wonderful idea -- for about one 17-year-old

Japanese girl in a million. Meanwhile, something like <a

href="http://www.geocities.com/fzorkis/zorki_6.html" title="Yes, a

Zorki 6">this</a> might

appeal to one in a thousand, possibly your neighbor.</p>

[Spearhead]

As someone who has "mentored" teenagers interested in photography...the main thing is to talk to them about what they shoot and why they want to shoot, and to encourage them to shoot the things that matter to them, so they develop a vision of some sort. A lot of the kids I deal with are worried their equipment isn't "good enough," but I tell them to shoot with anything, even disposables, as long as what they are shooting is what they want to shoot. They have years and years to buy equipment, but finding their vision, and possibly a style, is far more important than any equipment they buy.

 

Seems to work, too, based on what I've seen as results.

[ron c sunshine coast,qld,a]

I've totally given up on the idea that a learner must have an older manual focus camera to learn on.It's simply rubbish.If someone is interested in learning they will have no problem putting a modern camera in M mode<BR>The very similar "50mm prime lens only" is also not very usefull!How is someone supposed to learn about perspective if they only have one view of it (unless they crop)?!

 

<p>For future ease of compatability i heartily recommend a rebel-they can do everything!

<br>On the other hand,she may WANT to get an older metal camera because she likes them.But that's about the only reason one would get one.

[edgreene]

PENTAX Z-XM. Because the Pentax "K" mount and the tens of thousands of really cheap Pentax SMC coated lenses out there.<p>(SMC) lenses from 28mm to 85 are literally dirt cheap, as are the Petnax made Takumar SMC lenses. From the "M" "K" mount lenses to AF2 (autofocus mount), she would have lenses aplenty for the time she is in school and beyond. <p>And though I shoot Canon EOS, I also have and use Canon FD and Pentax "K" bodies and lenses.

 

PENTAX Z-XM.

[john_wire]

Don't limit her photographic education to just snapshots or photojournalism with small digital or 35mm images.

 

Expand her horizons with inexpensive MF stuff.

 

Is there anything more awesome or rewarding than a 6x6 tranny or 20x20 print?

[watchin]

Novel suggestion - Ask her what she likes to shoot.

Ask her what her interests are other than photography.

Give her several cameras to hold and play with to see what she's

comfortable with.

 

Base the decision on that. I once had a Pentax given to me, beautiful camera, I hated it because it was too small for my hands. Sold it bought a used Minolta and loved it.

 

How many of us have had the same experience? So taking that into account... show her the options, let her choose, work from there...

She supplies the parameters, you supply the expertise!

 

Just a suggestion,

Greg

[k._rivkin]

I can only share my own "freshie" experience. The problem of a limited budjet like this is that photography is a very expensive hobby.

 

I also had a 50mm fix + film body when I was starting to do photography. Then I realised that skilled developing (walmart usually negates the possibilities to advance ones skills) plus printing plus a roll of film...

 

You look at bare minimum of 10$ per roll (and it's a very optimistic minimum). Just to get the feeling of ones camera, of 35 mm even if you are let's say skilled medium format photographer, you need to shoot may be 30 rolls with no good output.

 

So we are looking for at least 300$ extras ...

 

So my responce would be to buy something like Canon G2/G3 - it's a nice 4mp camera with manual modes and it can be had quite cheap right now.

 

The advantage is that you don't need to pay for the first 1000 stupid frames, cause you don't print them.

 

Yes, the 35mm SLR is more of a pro ballpark, but it's really expensive to maintain.

 

I also second the TLR option, with Minolta Autocord instead of Yashica, and with "no e-bay" warning.

[mike_elek]

To learn and understand the relationship between shutter speeds, aperture and exposure, it's best to use a camera that allows you to EASILY select shutter speed and aperture.

 

Pushing a series of buttons to accomplish this isn't as simple to understand nor as easy to do as turning the shutter speed dial and aperture ring.

 

The beauty of the manual SLR camera from the 1960s and 1970s lies in their simplicity.

 

If the goal is simply to allow her to take high-quality photographs, then any modern-day SLR will accomplish that. If the goal is to teach her photography, then a manual SLR might be the better tool.

[Spearhead]

The problem here is that most people are talking about <i>camera operation</i> and not <i>photography.</i> I can teach someone aperture and shutter speed and exposure in about an hour. They can do it with any camera. This is very different than teaching someone how to look at a scene and get a result on a print that they want. <p>

 

Really, any camera will do if <i>photography</i> is the goal.

[peter_phan]

Future-forward compatibility as her skills mature should be a strong consideration in selecting a camera. That's why I would avoid the old manual-system cameras and go with an entry-level autofocus SLR. I highly recommend any of the Canon EOS Rebels-- even an older used Rebel. They are among the most well-featured entry-level SLR bodies on the market. Key features that they offer are: Manual, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority, center-weighted/evaluative/partial metering, film DX override. More recent Rebels offer depth of field preview and E-TTL flash compatibility (which allows for flash value lock, high speed flash sync up to 1/2000s, wireless multiple TTL flash). A used Rebel 2000 in "Like New" or "Excellent" condition is less than $150 at <a href="http://www.keh.com/shop/product.cfm?bid=CE&cid=02&sid=newused&crid=7497310">www.keh.com</a>. You can probably get one even cheaper on ebay. A used Rebel X (my first Canon EOS-- very basic, with no pop-up flash or depth-of-field preview, but still great to learn with) is less than $90. For a history/chronology of Canon EOS models, look

 

<a href="http://www.eos-magazine.com/System_EOSmodels.html">here</a>. The nice thing about the Rebels is that they all have 9% central partial meters for greater metering control, whereas other entry-level models typically only offer center-weighted and matrix/evaluative metering.

<p>

 

The great thing about the EOS system is that every lens she buys will be 100% compatible with any future EOS bodies she may buy. Other systems allow you to fit old lenses to newer bodies, but metering and communication between the lens and body are usually very limiting. So when she decided to upgrade to a digital SLR, the transition is easy, and she'll be able to use all her existing lenses with complete functionality preserved. And the latest EOS lenses will all work with even the oldest EOS bodies.

[peter_phan]

Canon Rebel GII kit with Canon 35-80mm zoom, $199.95

 

--or--

 

Canon Rebel 2000 kit with Canon 28-80mm zoom, $239.95

 

Add Canon 50/1.8 lens, $69.95.

 

The difference between the Rebel 2000 and the Rebel GII are:

depth-of-field preview vs no depth-of-field preview, 7 autofocus points vs 3 autofocus points, 1.5 fps vs. 1.0 fps. Frankly, I don't think it's worth the $40 difference.

[tito sobrinho]

"Really any camera will do if photography is the goal" <Jeff Spirer>

 

Right on the money!

 

Late 50s, myself with a Yashicaflex and my friends with Leicas, Contaxes and Contaflexes formed a small photographic club. There was a girl with a 6x9 Kodak box 620 Brownie. She had the best vision among us with excellent pictures concerning composition. We used to comment - Gosh, how can she do that with an inexpensive camera?

 

Fellows, the secret lies on one's vision through the finder.

[beepy]

I'm in Jeff's camp.

<p>

It's sad - I have too much equipment. Met a landscape photographer recently shoots 4x5. Common. He started with exactly one lens - 90mm. Once he felt he was proficient in its use he added another lens to his kit, like 2 years later? Everything is a more measured pace with large format. :-)

<p>

So, back to this thread, I think Jeff's basic point was good - how do you get a person thinking about photography and not the camera?

<p>

So, ya know, here's an inexpensive suggestion. Get a cheap used 35mm SLR. Get a used tripod (where did I read recently that the most important equipment decision a photographer makes is whether or not to use a tripod - ah, I think the back issues of LensWork on CD). Get two body caps. In one cap cut a hole, epoxy aluminum foil over it into which an extraordinarily small pinhole has been made. I think on most SLRs because of mirror distance this results in a 40mm or something equivalent focal length. Shoot some test pics in bright sun on tripod .6 to 2s on 100 ISO? I think.

Saves the cost (well at least defers the decision) of a lens. :-)

<p>

I'm only half kidding. I've been doing pinhole photos recently and having quite the blast. Doing so has certainly caused me to reflect on lots of photo issues (and read a book History of Photography also which gave me more stuff to reflect on when not shooting).

<p>

But do consider a tripod and cable release instead of a second lens say. Will broaden subject matter and shooting style allowing experiments with DOF and stuff (now, one thing I like about pinhole lenses is their essentially infinite depth of field - the world's first autofocus camera? :-)

[beepy]

So, broadening my response and stating the obvious (kinda funny, actually).

<p>

Have you turned her on to photo.net?

<p>

Besides equipment questions answered, and answered, and answered:-) she can be exposed to some interesting portfolios such as:

<blockquote>

Also, there are a few photographers on photo.net I really like with self-portraits - why read a book - study your friends! <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?include=all&user_id=244914"> Amy Powers</a>, <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?include=all&user_id=523085">Laura

Napolitano</a> (I think all hers are self-portraits if people?), <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?user_id=858357">Melody Small</a>. A variety - oddly I reflect that my three choices are women...

</blockquote>

Excerpt from a previous posting of mine in response to ideas on self-portraits. I was intrigued that I had settled on three women's portfolios in response to the question. Which brings up a Japanese woman photographer, <a href="http://www.zabriskiegallery.com/Sawada%202003/SawadaReviews.htm"> Tomoko Sawada</a>, that might appeal as a source of inspiration. Self-portraits are a time honored tradition for studying people photography - and using yourself as a model is inexpensive indeed:-)

<p>

I have found self-portraiture with a pinhole to be a long drawn out experience though... :-)

[k._rivkin]

I would disagree with "camera does not matter".

 

It's like saying that "it does not matter how fast your computer, what matters is your skill as a programmer".

 

Sort of true, but does not help a person who came into market with some bucks and trying to buy something.

 

I can only say - try to figure out how much money do you want to spend on shooting. Yes, SLR or Yashica (I would not recommend "124G, excellent condition" off e-bay but rather Minolta Autocord/Yashica in a good condition) will be a better choise in terms of output quality and understanding such things as DOF preview (not Yashica) etc.

 

Digicam will allow her to shoot and see what comes out right away, do technically complex photographs that would otherwise require a few rolls per shot, and not to limited by "developing" funds. Yes, she can save money by going slide, but again it's far more expensive then digital.

 

Buying books on composition is a _must_.

[yance_marti]

You should rethink the idea of not getting a digital camera for her. Just because she shows an inclination towards photography and can take some decent pictures is no reason to buy her an old school SLR or medium format or large format :D

 

Ask her what interests her about photography - not equipment. Maybe a decent P&S digital camera with manual controls like the Canon G series would be good for her at this point. Smothering her with a heavy-duty camera system could be bad IMO. Give her something easy and small that she can carry anywhere. I think for a teenager today - a digital camera is ideal.