The reason to assist, then 2nd, before you "turn pro"

<p>I'll bet you're excited to be a wedding photographer, you should be, you are there to capture one of life's events one of the most historically meaningful moments other than birth or death, that most people will ever be a part of.</p>

<p>So with that said I'm going to beg you to do something, and chime back if you are uncertain what I mean-which I will long windedly explain here...Ready?</p>

<p>Before you become a primary, be an assistant for 20 weddings,<br>

...which also means being okay with making less than $200 for the day...learn how to set up the lights, watch how to pose, or capture the moment, or post produce, or just put things away, every time, exactly as they came out.</p>

<p>Then after that, be a 2nd photographer for 30-50 weddings,<br>

...be okay with making less than $500 per event-maybe much less, but insist on being able to review the photos with the principal or owner, as well as being able to have access to your own RAW files on your own system. You will learn how to pose and ask the assistants (not tell them) how to set your lights, when to ask for help, how to get the best pictures without having to use 5 16gb compact flash cards because you spent 50 images on the bouquet or the placards. Watch how the principal interacts with the clients-you're not mute you'll be talking too, but watch. Accept that the principal has a company riding on your work, not 100%, but definitely a reputation. Ask, Listen, Learn, they might not be a Master, or the most highly paid photographer, but I'll bet they love what they do.</p>

<p>Finally, find a company looking for photographers-they are all over the place, true their work is not as good as the independent professionals, but they aren't in business to be that way, they are in business for volume. Shoot 20 weddings with them as a primary, or solo photographer, Learn about what you like and don't like about that style of shooting, maybe you love the last minute approach or not knowing or picking your clients, maybe you are okay with never communicating with clients afterwards, I don't know why but maybe. The thing is, there are places to learn where you have support and great interest in doing well. If you need, think of it like working at McDonalds-the food isn't the best, but you know what you're getting. It will never be gourmet, but for many it's good enough, and you don't want to invest your passion with people who just want the lowest price anyway. Yeah I said it! :-)</p>

<p>Now, 2-3 years in, you're ready to be consider taking up photography to pay the bills. You will know your worth because of what you've learned and experienced. You will know how much people pay for what you do in the area you do it, and you will decide if you want to be in that pack or a different market demographic altogether. You do NOT have to take sub $200 jobs (or $1500) just to pay the bills, which will magically balloon faster than the income you bring in.</p>

<p>Find a photographer, or several, who you like their work, and them personally. Did I mention that myself, I love working with new people, but have discovered I'm ...."salty" with my assistants during a shoot, so if you can handle that and still learn than all kinds of photographers, like the one I learned under, are out there just waiting to heap abuse, and eventually respect and responsibility, on your shoulders. Many people will say no, most because we like doing things a certain way and new, whether better or good, is still different.<br>

You can do this, and in a way that is legal, honest, mature, and profitable, you just can't do it all this season or next, you need to know, at every stage, that only in the darkroom could we develop faster by adding heat. In this business faster is heat all right, but it's the kind that is under the frying pan.<br>

Good Luck, and chime in.</p>

<p>sounds like me alright... But you forgot the bit about going out on your own and competing with every man/woman with a camera who took the shortcut of not assiting... and the bit about investing in new gear while making 50 - 100 euros a shoot every two weeks and paying the bills and keeping the other half happy... but you keep going beacause its what you love doing as oppossed to what you used to do and hated..<br>

good luck, take care<br>

Al</p>

<p>This might qualify you to be a reasonably competent mechanic, but it's still a leap from becoming a successful service garage owner. </p>

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<p>But you forgot the bit about going out on your own and competing with every man/woman with a camera who took the shortcut of not assiting</p>

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<p>You also forgot that not everyone is the same. Some take ages to learn things, some just need to be shown once. Some people learn from doing, others from reading. You can't write a formula for learning and assume it applies equally to everyone.</p>

<p>I was having trouble sleeping worrying about who was going to be made King. It's good to know I'll be able to get a good night's sleep tonight.</p>

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<p>Now, 2-3 years in, you're ready to be consider taking up photography to pay the bills.</p>

 

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<p>Apart from apprenticeships and similar training, most people start work and earn money from day one. I don't think a two to three year delay in this is reasonable or practical.</p>

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<p>Apart from apprenticeships and similar training, most people start work and earn money from day one. I don't think a two to three year delay in this is reasonable or practical.</p>

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<p>Perhaps, but this is why there are so many poor (quality and financially) wedding photographers and disappointed (with the results) couples. IMO. Obviously, there are exceptions.</p>

<p>I never assisted a wedding photographer. I worked twice as a second shooter for images for my book. I'd say that if you have good instincts and technique, you could jump in right away.<br /> Like anything else, there is no set path or magic bullet to shooting weddings. You've got to do what works for you. If you're going to take it beyond extra income, all it takes is some business smarts and a lot of hard work. Talent is the easy part.</p>

<p>20 weddings as an assistant? there isn't that much you can learn from carrying bags. 30 to 50 as a second shooter. there isn't enough demand for seconds, the job barely existed until about 10 years ago. Someone going through all that would probably have a good idea what to do but become would a clone of who they are working for. there are plenty of ways to learn outside of weddings too. Portraiture, plays, dancing, and sports are very helpful.</p>

 

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<p>Perhaps, but this is why there are so many poor (quality and financially) wedding photographers</p>

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<p>It's probably why there are so many poor quality workers in just about every trade. When people find themselves out of work and in need of an income their thoughts are <em>'what do I know how to do that I can earn money from' </em>not <em>'I know, I'll form a three year development plan'.</em></p>

<p>But where else would one learn all those cool poses, like the Bride and BMs doing the Muscle Beach pose that the OP uses.</p>

I had a successful wedding business. I never seconded. I got into it accidentally by filling in at the last minute when the contracted photographer crapped out. I had good MF equipment, was already photographing for a newspaper and had my own darkroom. I knew how to take pictures well enough to do the job. I posted two color blowups that I printed of that wedding in the newspaper lobby which led immediately to two more weddings which led to more etc. I understood the marketing and business part from prior experience. I understood the risk part from a long and successful aviation career. After what I did for a living in aviation research I do not think doing weddings is rocket science. I do think one has to be well grounded in the fundamentals of photography, have excellent equipment and a personality that can sell a product and elicit smiles from brides and groups. I also had a home studio with a large display of prior wedding pictures where I marketed my potential clients. Those elements are much more important than standing around as a second for a hundred or so weddings. I kept that enterprise going for about seven years until I decided I was getting old and I did not want to work that hard. I had a very good local reputation. It is very hard work I found out. I was too greedy to pay a second. As I see on photonet, competition weeds out substandard performers.

<p>Most workers come into a situation where there are other people to rely on. Photographers most of the time work alone and have no one to ask how do I handle what they don't expect. It would be great if everyone took 3 years to apprentice but it will never happen. <br>

Face it, a large part of the market doesn't care if the photographer knows what they are doing, price is all that matters to many.</p>

 

<p>In the art world, no two people travel the same path. <br /> Joe Buisink shot two weddings for free and a little later he shot Christina Applegate's wedding. I bet he didn't assist 20 and second shot 20-30 before that.</p>

<p>I don't know how many photogs are a three person team. I know that many that I went to the couple didn't even want extra lights to be setup so how many three person team photography opportunities are out there?</p>

<p>If you have it, you have it. Assisting and second shooting will certainly help. But if you truly need 20 assists and 50 second shoots to be ready, then you don't have it. </p>

<p>I agree with senor--you have to find your own path. Ask yourself whether you have the talent and drive to accomplish your goals. Not to mention luck.</p>

<p>The talent part is easy--you have it or you don't. The drive part is hard--this is where you need to get whatever is needed in the way of technical and business smarts to go from zero to fully operating in a short time. Do you want to do it on your own, which involves quite a bit of sustained discipline and ability to learn and make assessments without having others tell or show you, or have some help?</p>

<p>The luck part is random. Do you feel lucky?</p>

<p>Daniel,<br>

Your assumption is that the photographers to whom one would apprentice one's self would have anything worth learning. My area is saturated with photographers and I perform at weddings as a musician so I'm able to observe many different ones. Half of them don't know what they're doing, as evidenced by the poor posing, poor lighting, and lack of attention to detail. I doubt many could explain light fall off or the inverse square law, or feel the need to. They will likely add some sepia or turn the camera at an angle and create something "artistic." Their qualifications are cheesy websites with stolen whiney pop music blaring in the background and big white lenses. So many have gone into the field that I'm not sure how a beginner could tell who to learn from.</p>

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<p>I perform at weddings as a musician so I'm able to observe many different ones. Half of them don't know what they're doing, as evidenced by the poor posing, poor lighting, and lack of attention to detail. </p>

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<p>I also play music at weddings occasionally and have made similar observations.</p>

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<p> Half of them don't know what they're doing, as evidenced by the poor posing, poor lighting, and lack of attention to detail. </p>

 

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<p>Just wondering how can you observe such things? Did you check out their photos after the fact? Sometimes it's obvious someone doesn't know what they are doing. But I'm not sure how you can tell these things most of the time just by observing how they work.</p>

<p>Do enjoy a lively discussion,<br>

As Nadine says, I'd rather be lucky. It's true, Lightning does strike, a'la Joe Bussinik, but if you asked him to compare then from now, he might very much enjoy an opportunity to experiment under someone's arm.<br>

As for being practical in terms of payment, it's often been said that if you are getting into photography for the money, don't quit your day job. A little more to the point, if you aren't that good going in, you aren't going to get the money you think you are anyway.<br>

Charge $1000 for your first few weddings because you believe you have talent, and a few people come to you, you will quickly discover how much your time is worth as well as how much extra time you will need to invest. You may reinvest in equipment, which is good, you may attend workshops on lighting and posing, which apparently some people here believe everybody good knows how to do naturally. I'm just saying you can still reinvest in your equipment while assisting (I went from D70 to D700 while assisting) but a bigger lens won't make you a better photographer.</p>

<p>Yes, I firmly believe 20 of carrying bags and watching, if you can't learn anything by watching, well I guess you are probably not someone who should be looking for work in a visual medium eh? I didn't say you're mute during this time, ask a question from your principal....jeeze..<br>

As for a musician telling me about how good or bad the photographs are before they see the result, I'll follow that advice when you listen to me about how to set up your pieces so the music sounds better..apples and oranges really. Cheese exists, and it's different everywhere, I live and work in an area where we wouldn't dream of telling the father and daughter to stop during their dance to look at the camera and smile, that's just this area. Some places they would assume I don't know what I'm doing because I don't do that.</p>

<p>Gang, if it were easy everybody would do it, the fact that it seems everybody is doing it doesn't mean the quality is there, as long as we, the alleged professionals believe there is a quick way, outside of ridonk-u-lous talent like Joe (who started before digital btw) incredible luck, we will always look away from the simple truth, and apparently maligned here, that hard work and dedication to craft yields results, but a successful business also happens the same way.<br>

I didn't even start talking about how to run a business, which has a measure of luck, but much more about listening to others.<br>

Looking forward to some people actually contacting me to assist, I let you keep your photos, and I'll be sure to check with the band about the best pictures too.</p>

<p>enjoy!</p>

 

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<p> A little more to the point, if you aren't that good going in, you aren't going to get the money you think you are anyway.</p>

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<p>A little more to the point: That is complete unadulterated nonsense.</p>

<p>I generally don't contribute to the wedding forums as I no longer shoot weddings; haven't for at least 15 yrs; but your post struck a chord with me. You will find me in the business forum far more often.</p>

<p>How good you are or think you are has very little to do with earning income with photography.</p>

<p>There are thousands of shooters out there who are no doubt technically more proficient than I.<br>

Of those thousands, few earn their primary income via photography due to a problem you eloquently presented. Many of the thousands are simply diluting the market place with sub par work. So what? Let them. If I were still in the wedding biz, I would probably be booking one 52 times a year if I wanted...too much work; hence one of the reasons I do not shoot weddings any longer.</p>

<p>To direct people in a path YOU feel is the way is highly presumptious and arrogant.</p>

<p>It is akin to saying "you must go to college to earn a good living living"...when going to college does little except prepare our youth to enter the rat race.</p>

<p>Education be it from within or externally disiplined knows no bounds. Both ways can us there as both ways can also destroy all hope of being happy and content.<br>

If someone wishes to stack the odds in their favor for success in wedding photography or building widgets, begin to digest business concepts first, on your own if reading is a skill we possess or externally thru a structured program.</p>

<p>Failure has little to do with f stops, lenses, off camera flash techniques, craigs list low ballers etc...Thousands of hobbiest have these skills across the planet.</p>

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<p>If someone wishes to stack the odds in their favor for success in wedding photography or building widgets, begin to digest business concepts first,</p>

 

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<p>I cannot agree with you more. Many people can devout the concept F stop and ISO in no time. But many don't make it because they either don't understand the concept of business and just weren't born to run a business.</p>

<p>I'm afraid photogs are naturally subjective people who are prone to struggle on certain business concepts like it is the market that decides your price. What you think your time and talent are worth, or the fact that you have to raise a family shooting weddings have nothing to do with how much you should charge.</p>

<p>Nadine, feel free to delete this if I'm over the line, but God, this makes me want to vent!</p>

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<p>become a primary, be an assistant for 20 weddings,<br>

Then after that, be a 2nd photographer for 30-50 weddings,<br>

Finally, find a company looking for photographers-<br>

Now, 2-3 years in, you're ready</p>

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<p>Daniel, I dislike hearing people preach <strong>"The One True Way "</strong> in any field. But to hear someone do it event photography, which is the commercialization of an art form, is especially disturbing. I immediately clicked on your profile, basically because I suspected you were someone who just signed up to photo.net in order to try to sell us on your videos, ebooks, or seminars.</p>

<p>I didn't find s spammer, but I didn't find a wedding photographer, either. If what you're showing here is the result of your 2-3 year program, then you stand as proof of the total ineffectiveness of your own method.</p>

<p>I'm not and never will be a wedding photographer, but my father was. He always claimed it was 10% photographic skill and 90% people skills.</p>

<p>I suppose there is also a large element of business skill there too but as he was not self employed, this didn't figure in his ratio.</p>

<p>These posts are interesting to read. I've gotten into wedding photography through friends who said "oh you have a camera - can you take pictures for my wedding?" I loved it and since then am trying to branch out and do this more often for people who are willing to pay more than friends do. :-) One thing I'd like to comment on about the original comment on how much experience a person "should" have before entering the wedding world. I would LOVE to be able to do that...how I would LOVE to watch a few other people shoot weddings and learn a little more, especially technical things and people skills. But in our area, there is NO WAY that anyone is going to let me do that if they know my intention is to take away their business someday with my own business. I'd have to travel about 3 hours away to get anyone who wouldn't know who I was and who's business is not effected by my business. Nice idea, but I don't see how it's realistic...</p>

<p>Green,<br>

<strong>Just wondering how can you observe such things? Did you check out their photos after the fact? Sometimes it's obvious someone doesn't know what they are doing. But I'm not sure how you can tell these things most of the time just by observing how they work.</strong><br>

Some things are observable, such as when a groom is posed and one cuff is in the sleeve and the other is out, or when a couple is posed in dappled light. Sometimes you hear things, like when I heard one photographer say to the other "what setting do I use" and other saying "just put it on the green square." Sometimes I see interesting things like two photographers covering a ceremony from the same place, one trying to shoot over another.<br>

Scott</p>