The reason to assist, then 2nd, before you "turn pro"

[charles_h2]

<p>WOW,<br>

I think it's time for a group hug. When I read the OP, I knew the sharks would smell blood. I am in total agreement with Kevin and Joseph, and I can also feel the frustration of Daniel and many others trying to make a living as a photographer these days. There is an old saying, " You will never earn a penny calculating your neighbor's wealth". Worrying or trying to direct others to their promise land is a waste of energy. Most of us get there, or not, the best way we know how , or with the resources that are available to us.<br>

We start off as artists, technicians, or business driven, and then strive to become proficient at all three. There is no formula or timetable for how long it will take, or if it will happen at all. As a pro, you try your best to satisfy your client, and hopefully in the end, YOURSELF...</p>

[dmcgphoto]

<p>I'm hugging Phil right back.<br>

For those who think it's presumptive and arrogant, hey, you're entitled to your opinion. I believe your putting thoughts into what I said. I am not saying, nor did you read, this is an absolute way, but if you put your talents to use this way, the way the majority of photographers do, rather than jump in and let the forces of fate take over, I feel...yes I do, and I'm willing to say it, you will be more successful, then the other way. I think Steve's father was right towards having a successful business.</p>

<p>But to those who take offense or think I'm wrong who now work full time as a photographer, other than simply saying I'm wrong, and you're entitled to believe that, please share your idea for success for those starting out, things like a realistic timetable, way of interacting with clients, etc.<br>

The door here is open and I'd be happy to hear from those of you who DO have constructive input rather than assume that I assume there is only one way.<br>

This is a forum, so let's have some stories for....um, the people?</p>

 

[kevin_delson]

<blockquote>but if you put your talents to use this way,

<ul>

</ul>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Talent can be found everywhere. Singers, dancers, actors, photographers, inventors and the list goes on forever.</p>

<p>Talent is not enough. Again? <strong>Talent is not enough.</strong></p>

<blockquote>

<p>But to those who take offense or think I'm wrong who now work full time as a photographer, other than simply saying I'm wrong, and you're entitled to believe that, please share your idea for success for those starting out, things like a realistic timetable, way of interacting with clients, etc.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>To loosely quote Jim Lovell when facing his Apollo 13 disaster, <em>"There are a thousand steps to get where we need to be, you are on number 562"</em></p>

<p>Based on your time table, I must assume you are speaking to people who wish to eventually derive their primary income from shooting weddings; thereby holding the title "Professional." Those that shoot a weekend wedding here and there do not fall under (my) definition as professional<em>; </em>this has nothing to do with the quality of work.<em> </em></p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>please share your idea for success for those starting out</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Success? Who's definition? What yardstick are you using?<br>

Success has many definitions. For some, earning supplementary income of $12,000/yr is success.<br>

Paying the bills may be success to another.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>According to the US Census Bureau 2004 Community Survey, two-person households had a median income of $39,755, with $48,957 for three-person households</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>These figures are not financially successful to me. Me. Not you or anyone else.<br>

If you can maintain a wedding biz with a annual income of 40K and be happy with that; great!</p>

<p>Ideas for success? There are no (ideas) for success. What there is, are proven patterns of sound <strong>business</strong> practices.</p>

<p><strong>1) Develop a business plan!</strong></p>

<p>You say take 2-3 yrs as a assistant to a wedding shooter?</p>

<p>I say take <strong>ONE</strong> year of business courses focusing on Sales & Marketing. Notice the two words are always used together when talking about business. The beginning can be either formalized college level classes, several great books (not one book; look for patterns) or even better, a mentor who is a successful business person.<br>

The latter is difficult to find due to their time constraints...if you do find a business mentor, you just struck pay dirt!</p>

<p>I don't think photonet will allow me several thousand words in describing a BUSINESS PLAN. Plenty of good books already out there.</p>

<p>Summary of a good business plan:<br>

<strong>General:</strong></p>

 

<ul>

<li>Is this a profession I want to pursue? (Research)</li>

<li>Where am I now?</li>

<li>Where do I want to be in 5 years. (Position & Income)</li>

<li>How much time can I commit to this?</li>

<li>What is my current ability to finance this?</li>

<li>How much do I need?</li>

<li>Where will I get the financial resources?</li>

<li>Is there a market for what I want to do? (Prove it)</li>

<li>Who will I cater to?</li>

<li>Why will they want my services?</li>

<li>How will I market?</li>

<li>What is my reactionary plan to deal with growth, decline, stagnation?</li>

</ul>

<p>What methodology will show me growth, decline, stagnation? Rate change of all three?</p>

<p><strong>Financials:</strong></p>

 

<ul>

<li>Total yearly budget</li>

<li>Cost of doing business..Daily, weekly, monthly.</li>

<li>% of budget for marketing vs sales</li>

<li>$$$'s spent Vs Income generated? (Tracking)</li>

<li>Expenses (all) (start-up) including capital expenditures + now + future.</li>

<li>My salary?</li>

<li>Re-Infusion of income vs % increase in profits</li>

</ul>

<p>Other than under capitalization being the #1 reason businesses fail; failure to write a business plan is a very close second.</p>

<p>If you call your travel agent and say <em>"I wanna' go to Miami"</em> The agent will ask <em>"Where are you now"</em> NOT, go get on a bus.</p>

<p>Danial, you asked for specific advice for (startups) to stack the odds in their favor.<br>

Now you and anyone who wishes to take it..has it.</p>

<p>As soon as you begin from the above general information, sub categories of all those points will reveal themselves rapidly and clearly.<br>

It is at this point that anyone wishing to go into business <strong>full time</strong> will decide if they should or not.<br>

For some the answer is no. We as free spirits do not like to hear the word no.<br>

I'm not saying we should NOT do it; I'm saying we probably should not after some serious introspection.<br>

Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor or a lawyer or a plumber..it's life, the way we are built..and I for one am thrilled we are all not the same.</p>

<p>For the start-up entrepreneur; anything else is pure voodoo economics.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>or think I'm wrong who now work full time as a photographer,</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>There are many people here who work as a full time photographer, myself fully included, although I prefer to say I am a business person who earns his living thru photography.</p>

<p>I came to PN to <strong>contribute</strong>. rarely do I comment on technical areas unless I feel I have expertise in that area.</p>

<p>My expertise is indeed in business; how to start one, sustain it and the all important exit strategy.</p>

<p>I love photography, always have. Unless we have a passion for something, we should not attempt it as a profession. Did I get lucky? A few times I did. What I did do was work my behind off developing sound business practices built from foundations created by other successful business people.</p>

<p>Yes. I do take offense at the kind of advice you offered to (start-up) "newbies" wishing to enter the specialty of wedding photographer as their eventual profession.</p>

<p>Your advice places them on a bus they have yet to locate, headed to Miami but stranding them in "nowhere" USA.</p>

<p>I am not a "Dream Crusher"<br>

But to place someone on a rocky path w/o the benefit of ropes and good footware is just plain cruel.</p>

<p>Lastly; if my best friend wanted to enter the field of free lance photography, I would try to dissuade him at this time for many reasons, not the least of which is his inability to discipline himself to "stick with the plan."</p>

<p>Photography isn't difficult,<br>

Business in today's climate is.</p>

<blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

<p> </p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>What Daniel failed to mention was that during that time, hopefully the photographer you are working with will impart business knowledge to you. That is what he did with me. No I didn't fully follow Daniel's plan, but I did second shoot with him 3 times, and if I still lived in DC, I still would, while taking my own primary shooting jobs on the side. That's why I still 2nd shoot now that I'm up in Boston. I still sometimes write Daniel for advice, and when he thinks of a random tidbit of advice, he sends it my way.</p>

<p>The time I spent shooting with Daniel was frankly more valuable than all the books I have ever bought and even the photography classes I took in college. I'm sure Daniel would agree, I didn't come out a clone of him. As he would say to me time and time again, you are the only you there is. He most definitely is a wedding photographer, and a very good one at that, and one that has found a way to make a good living doing so. I'm not going to quantify what is a good living or not, but I know he is able to pay his bills at least. He gives his clients a high end product, and they really seem to love him.</p>

<p>Working with a pro can give you the following things that if you just go out on your own first you may not gain. </p>

<p>If the pro is well trained (either from years of experience, or from trial and error, or from schooling), and they are good teachers, they will likely share different techniques with you. This is more than just I use this ISO, this shutter speed etc. For example, one I never would have read in a book that Daniel gave me, if you really have no good bouncing surface, look for a man in a big white shirt, and bounce off of that, believe it or not, it worked like a charm. Or be patient when you shoot. Watch the scene that is going on. Anticipate that there will be a high point in the action that will be most photo worthy (this is still something I am having to push myself to do more, but it helps me shoot fewer frames and get better quality images). After reading this forum, and getting Nadine's advice on dragging my shutter in low light and letting the flash freeze the motion, I have taught this technique to all my 2nd shooters. They have been amazed at the results as much as I have been. Some of my 2nd shooters even though they have taken tons of classes had no idea about the effect of focal length on depth of field and the effect of distance from the camera on depth of field. If I think their lens choices or settings seem odd, I will ask them why they picked them. These are things that after I go through their images, I make a few notes for them so that they can learn from the process. Hopefully, the pro will be good a posing as well and by noticing what he or she does, you will pick up the things to look for. I generally go through a basic set of posing suggestions with my 2nd shooters. I even gave one recently the set of flash cards I made up for myself. <br>

There are things that are specific to event photography, like showing them that in practice for wedding photography at least, exposing to the right is usually a bit better than trying to bring up shots that are too dark, and the list goes on and on.<br>

I do always add the caveat, that this isn't the ONLY way to do something, it's just the way <em>I </em>do something, and that it has worked for me. But I encourage them to come up with their own methods too. But if I keep getting 2nd shooters providing me with 3 16gb cards worth of photos, and I only keep maybe 100 of their images to show the client, and a good lot are under exposed, or poorly in focus, poorly composed, or just boring, I won't continue to hire that 2nd shooter time and again.</p>

<p>Working with an established pro can also give you access to weddings that you would normally have no access to as a someone starting out. Having photos of these lavish events can REALLY help your portfolio. People still gravitate to the photos I took at a massive Indian wedding with Daniel in my portfolio. You can also start to develop relationships with higher end venues and wedding planners this way.</p>

<p>Working multiple weddings gives you experience in the flow of weddings. Yes, EVERY wedding is different. But there are similarities which flow through most. You knowing exactly about how long it takes someone to get into a dress, and the time it actually takes people to get through a receiving line when you see they have scheduled 5 minutes for it, and only 30 minutes for formals, you can then give people much more realistic expectations. You can say, from the receiving lines I've seen, they take about 20 minutes, and formals take about x long depending on x number of people. Just reading this type of thing on photo.net is helpful, but doesn't really embed in my brain quite as permanently as seeing it in person. Those times of seeing where things can go wrong and how to be prepared for them I think is extremely valuable. </p>

<p>Shooting that many weddings as a 2nd shooter also gives you the chance to really hone your skills while the big responsibility is off of your shoulders. Take the opportunity while 2nd shooting to do more out there techniques, and to really refine your basics as well.</p>

<p>So in the end, do you have to follow Daniel's plan to a T, to be a "success". No, no sirree bob. If you follow it, will you be assured you will become a "success", no. Will it up your chances at being a "success", I would say yes. The other thing I'd suggest is either taking a course in small business operations, reading books on it, or talking to other successful small business owners. I have seen many photographers far my photographically talented than I, who get far fewer gigs than I do, mostly because they really lack business savvy. If I could go back in time to college, I would definitely have added a few business courses to my schedule! ;)<br>

You can also watch how the pro interacts with the client. Note what you like and what you don't like. That pro is likely to be the be all end all guru of photography. 2nd shoot for lots of people. From that, build your own personal style. </p>

[dmcgphoto]

<p>yeah, what she said..</p>

<p>tho, I really like the<br>

"Photography isn't difficult,<br /> Business in today's climate is"</p>

<p>very appropriate, and I would agree with the year of business courses, that's where I wish I had spent some of my time, I had a course on it, but a business course geared towards a service oriented business. We are our own widgets, and as a wedding photographer, most people don't need that widget more than once. So an impression needs to be made.<br>

D</p>

[fotografz]

<p>Interesting discussion.</p>

<p>The assumption is that to be a wedding photographer you have to own and run the business. </p>

<p>For some it is a far better deal to be a really good second shooter and command a decent wage for higher end weddings ... which tend to want or require two photographers.</p>

<p>My second shooter has been working with me for over 3 years now. She started as an assistant and worked her way up. I pay her according to the level of wedding ... she takes any of it, the good and the bad and it all evens out.</p>

<p>She is quite talented and learned quickly. She could easily shoot a wedding on her own, but has absolutely no interest in doing so. It is not because of the business aspects ... she has two thriving businesses ... shooting newborns and family portraits ... and a kiddy clothing on-line store. She is more business savvy than I am.</p>

<p>What many do not understand is that aside from the basic business aspects of profit and loss, paying for insurance, keeping records, etc. , there is a huge amount of time dealing with clients before and after the wedding itself. It requires excellent people skills and a real knack for organization. The wedding shoot is just the tip of the Iceberg.</p>

<p>In short, some folks just don't want to be inundated with all that. </p>

<p>My former second shooter moved to Florida and hooked up with a rain maker that is a better business person than she is a photographer ... a person that could sell big lighters in Hell. He shoots almost every weekend .... either weddings, or food shots for a restaurant, or a dental lab web pics, but mostly weddings. He makes plenty of money ... I should make so much money ... and all he does is make photographs ... she does all the other stuff.</p>

<p>Different strokes for different folks. </p>

[fuccisphotos]

"You can also watch how the pro interacts with the client. Note what you like and what you don't like. That pro is likely

to be the be all end all guru of photography. 2nd shoot for lots of people. From that, build your own personal style.."

 

It should have read that pro is NOT likely to be the be all end all guru of photography. Whoops!

 

Interesting discussion though. I always love to find out the paths that other people took to become a wedding

photographer.

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>The assumption is that to be a wedding photographer you have to own and run the business.<br>

For some it is a far better deal to be a really good second shooter</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm not sure if it happens now but my father worked for a local photographer who had a shop and studio and also offered wedding photography. Sometimes my father would go out on his own and other times they would work together with neither of them considered a second to the other one. Both sharing the work equally.</p>

<p>So it is possible to work alone as a wedding photographer but not own the business.</p>

 

[simon_crofts]

<p>I think it's a very personal thing, there is no 'right' way of doing it.</p>

<p>Personally, I never assisted at a wedding, I just plunged in and did it. I think assisting would actually most likely have been positively harmful for me, and I'm glad I didn't. For others, it might well be a good thing.</p>

<p>But before doing anything at all, you have to be fairly sure that you're not going to ruin anyone's wedding.</p>

 

[green_photog]

<p>I jumped in without assisting. But now I am actually more interested to assist as I really want to see how other people do it after I have setup a routine for myself. I find my sets look kind of the same which may or may not be a good thing.</p>

<p>Funny how is that I think I can offer more to the photog if I assist now and I can also get more out of assisting now than before.</p>

[jonathan_davila]

<p>Scott,</p>

<p> Perhaps those photographers that are bad at your events did try to be second shooters at pros events. Maybe all the pros said no thank you.</p>

<p>It's a rough business for sure. All wedding photographers at some point or another "were bad" and lacked attention to certain details because their adrenaline was pumping so hard because they were worried about figuring out the proper exposure setting and not missing an important moment.</p>

<p>If all pro's theoretically told all new photographers that they had no interest in training them or letting them second shoot, what then would you suggest in that scenario? For the bride and groom to get potentially poor quality photos (but at least they got some photos that were in their price range - you get what you pay for), or have no photos at all?</p>

<p>At some point all the pro's are going to die off and the bad generation of today will be tomorrow's pro's after they have enough experience. The unfortunate side is that some B & G's out there will in fact suffer for it.</p>

<p>The only ones I have sympathy for, are the ones that pay big bucks for a "pro" and get pro quality results. IMO the ones that scout for the budget deal, and manage to find someone in that price range willing to do the work. Well. They got exactly what they hunted for. They didn't go to the lexus dealership and see 500 new sports models before picking one out. They went downtown to the used car dealership and looked at 2 or 3 clunkers before getting one that would just "get them around town" if you catch my meaning.</p>

<p>If someone wants to go the route of learning on the job on their own if they can't find reasonably apprenticeships. So be it I say. But I say to those that choose that route: find couples that are okay with the budget photographer and what you will produce and make it clear before hand that your experience lacks. So they have no amazing expectations other than you "capturing" the event within their listed budget price.</p>

<p>To those trying to charge pro prices and putting the settings on the "green box" and trying to sell themselves as professional to clients. The shame is on those ones!</p>

[jonathan_davila]

<p>Now that I've said all that. Let me follow up by saying, it's my personal philosophy to always continue to grow and learn. Even though I'm running my own wedding photography business.. there are always those that will know more than me. For instance, as part of my bettering education I'm booking into one of Neil Vn's upcoming seminars in September even though I've read every ounce of words to be read on his website. I want to pick that mans brain apart.</p>

<p>I've also considered many occasions begging mark williams to let me come shoot with him free of charge since I live so close. Don't know why I never got around to the begging, but maybe some day he will have me over and teach me some things! I consider my photography to be sub par compared to Neil VN and Mark Williams, and many others on photo.net. It doesn't mean that my photographs aren't still better than half the people selling wedding photography in my area or that I can't compete in the bracket I'm in. I never get clients that are doctors , lawyers etc. And in my price range, if they approached me, I'd probably be shocked and I simply would tell them I'm sorry but I'm probably not up to that level of a wedding and make some good local recommendations.</p>

<p>I don't ever try to market myself as what I'm not though. I would never take on a 300 person italian wedding in an upscale french riviera resort. I simply couldn't justify what I deliver right now with my experience for what something like that would pay.</p>

<p>But watch out mark williams and neil vn! Cause in 10 years I'll be a pro and you're probably gonna be retired and reading my blogs! :P</p>

[williamsquire]

<p>I just did my first wedding the other day. Never assisted, never was a second. Going into it I was nervous for 2 reasons<br>

1) It was my first time<br>

2) Fear mongering negative photographers on this site and in Henry's. When I go to Henry's to purchase equipment there are only 3 people out of the 10 that work there that i will talk to. The rest are know it all stuck ups. Reading through this thread I see the ratio still stands. Don't mean to be rude but honestly there is just to many negative and apparently angry photographers and it's why I almost always never post anything here or walk out the door at Henry's if my fav 3 are not working.<br>

The digital era brought an end to the darkroom and the specialized field of photography and made the market accessible to anyone who can afford a DSLR. After that it comes down to skill. Photography like any other art can be approached as many different ways as there are people holding a camera. The business side of it is an area that can lend great insight from many photographers. <br>

Thankfully there are just enough positive people on here who care enough to help not lecture people and be so painfully negative.<br>

Now coming out the other end of the wedding would assisting/seconding at a wedding help? Sure training always helps. Is it absolutely necessary? Depends on the person and their learning curve. If you are well prepared, know your equipment, have the right equiment, have great people skill and have done many portraits/events jump right in like I did and have a blast doing it! </p>

<p>There is no 1 answer or easy answer to how to go about doing it. The OP's post applies only to himself unless someone finds it useful.</p>

 

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>“<em><strong>Fear mongering negative photographers on this site </strong></em>and in Henry's.<br>

When I go to Henry's to purchase equipment there are <strong><em>only 3 people out of the 10 that work there that i will talk to</em></strong>. The rest are know it all stuck ups. <strong><em> </em></strong><br>

<strong><em>Reading through this thread I see the ratio still stands.”</em></strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong><em> </em></strong><br>

Interesting comment.<br>

On my reading of this thread I certainly do NOT note even close to 70% of the comments being "fear mongering and negative".</p>

<p>We therefore must be interpreting this thread differently.</p>

<p>And therefore, as our occurrence of the content and meaning of the comments in this thread are so vastly different, I submit that we each are viewing this thread from a different standpoint:</p>

<p>i.e. we each bring a different bias to the interpretation of the words and meaning contained here.<br>

<br>

WW<strong><em></em></strong></p>

[williamsquire]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=2223148">William W</a><br>

"Interesting comment.<br />On my reading of this thread I certainly do NOT note even close to 70% of the comments being "fear mongering and negative".<br>

We therefore must be interpreting this thread differently.<br>

And therefore, as our occurrence of the content and meaning of the comments in this thread are so vastly different, I submit that we each are viewing this thread from a different standpoint:<br>

i.e. we each bring a different bias to the interpretation of the words and meaning contained here." <a href="../photodb/user?user_id=2223148">William W</a></p>

<p>Probably the smartest thing I have ever read on a forum. And reading over my last reply I see that I was myself being negative and fueling negativity. I apologies to the forum.<br>

I also apoligies for not quoting correctly and would appreciate someone telling me how to :)</p>

<p>Billy</p>

 

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p> . . . reading over my last reply I see that I was myself being negative and fueling negativity.”</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Haha!</p>

<p>Well spied.</p>

<p>I doubt that apologies are absolutely necessary, certainly not to me - I was just a diligent reader of this thread from the OP's post. <br>

Assiduous and potent contribution and participation in the forum, would be more useful than apologies . . .</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>In the "Contribute a response" box, there is a “Block Quote” icon.<br>

It is the one that is the two "inverted commas".<br>

Highlight the text you wish to block quote, then click on that icon.</p>

<p> ***</p>

<p>Good on you for answering so promptly and so directly.</p>

<p>WW</p>