Some issues color developement C41, ENC-2, bleach bypass

Hello.

I hope there is someone who can help me. I did some experiements with color development and got some interessting effects. Don't know if it's my foult (e.g. contaminied chemistry etc.).

1. A new Kodak Gold 200, C41 standard developmen (dev, time and temp), but with bleach bypass. I used a stop bath made of 2.5% acetic acid after developer. Results are quite good, but mask color/base density is quite dark. Like a black fog over the negative. When I bleach the film (and end piece) and fix again, than this dark fog disapeared. So I assume it's silver because it can be bleached away. But why? What is it and why is it there. Film is defenitely not exposed by wrong light. And if the fog wouldn't be consistent, but it is.

2. I developed an Vision3 50D (5209) with RA-4 developer. Result is quite good looking at the neg by eye. But mask color is red. Normal mask color of an Vision3 is bright orange. Looks like a constant magenta fog.

Than I took to pieces of an undeveloped 50D. One piece I put into bleach, than I put both in fixer. Both pieces are clear with a normal orange mask, but the one without bleach is slightly darker.

(Its not the remjet! The remjet was removed almost completely by the fix and I used a remjet remover additionally)

For my unerstanding only development should influence mask color by decolorize the colored couplers.

Can someone explain these effects?

Thomas

I don't know about bleach bypass, but if you do, then the silver will still be there.

RA-4 is similar to C-41, but I wouldn't use one instead of the other, just as I don't use Dektol for black and white film.

(I believe with appropriate dilution and time it will work, but isn't recommended.)

Now all films are sensitive to violet and blue, we can’t take that away. Ordinary silver salts are not sensitive to green or red. Silver salts are dyed to force them to become sensitive to green and blue. We are talking orthochromatic and panchromatic films and the use of sensitizing dye.

Because the both the green and red sensitive emulsions will react to blue and violet, we must protect them with a blue blocking filter (strong yellow). Carey-Lea to the rescue, this coat, under the blue sensitive emulsions is a suspension of super tiny flakes of colloidal silver in a gelatin binder. It effectively blocks blue and violet. Best of all, the bleach step will transforms the Carey-Lea to a silver salt and then the fixer step dissolves it away. Film not bleached will still have thee Carey-Lea filter in place.

The orange mash is more complex than you think. Color films all suffer from the fact that the magenta and the cyan dye incorporate in the film during manufacture are not perfect as to their color. Whereas the yellow dye is nearly perfect. The cyan dye is the worst; the magenta dye is just barely OK. Both need bolstering. All thee dyes are leuco (Greek for hidden). All three are missing the same ingredient; they will gain this ingredient from the color developer. It unites with the leuco dyes. As the various silver salts develop, the emerging metallic silver oxides as it encounters dissolved oxygen in the waters of the developer. This is the catalyst that unites the missing ingredient. Once received the dyes blossom forming full blown cyan, magenta and yellow. This is the stuff of the color image. To bolster the magenta and cyan, these dyes in their leuco state are intentionally colored. The magenta leuco is tinged yellow. The cyan leuco is tinged red. Together they give negative color films the familiar orange tint. This is the orange mask, it is not uniform, it is present only if the leuco dye is not transformed. Thus the orange mask is actually two positive images superimposed atop the three negative color images. If the film is processed using solutions that are not copies of the intended C-41 type, the results are not predicable. The dyes of the C-41 and E-6 are organic in nature. These are alterable by heat, chemical action, especially pH. Change anything and one cannot foresee the outcome. Again the orange mask consists of magenta and yellow leuco dye. These are intentionally colored to bolster the imperfect hues of the cyan and magenta dye. The orange mask is actually two positive color images superimposed atop the three negative color images.

More specifically, at least with the correct processing, the difference in absorption spectrum between the mask dyes and the developed dyes is mostly in the desired wavelengths.

There is a Kodak document that describes how to get a black and white image from color negative film, before the color image.

First develop and fix with black and white chemistry, then print or scan. (As above, the mask and yellow filter will be there.)

Next, with appropriate bleach chemistry, convert the silver image back to silver bromide.

Now develop with normal color chemistry.

The idea of this is that, at worst, you get the black and white image.

Carey-Lea to the rescue, this coat, under the blue sensitive emulsions is a suspension of super tiny flakes of colloidal silver in a gelatin binder. It effectively blocks blue and violet. Best of all, the bleach step will transforms the Carey-Lea to a silver salt and then the fixer step dissolves it away. Film not bleached will still have thee Carey-Lea filter in place.

Ah. Thanks. I didn't know this in this detail. This explains why unbleached, but undeveloped, film looks darker.

Color films all suffer from the fact that the magenta and the cyan dye incorporate in the film during manufacture are not perfect as to their color.

Thanks. I knew this already. I made my diploma about color crosstalk of negative film (actually 5244 intermed).

these dyes in their leuco state are intentionally colored. The magenta leuco is tinged yellow. The cyan leuco is tinged red. Together they give negative color films the familiar orange tint. This is the orange mask, it is not uniform, it is present only if the leuco dye is not transformed. Thus the orange mask is actually two positive images superimposed atop the three negative color images.

But since they are already colored, development should not enhance the density of the mask (in the non exposured parts, like on the perforation border).

But Vision 3 devoloped in RA-4 is significantly darker. (more magenta, red)

If the film is processed using solutions that are not copies of the intended C-41 type, the results are not predicable.

Kodak Vision3 are intended to be processed in ENC-2 not C41, like most cinefilm. C-41 uses CD4 as developer agent, ENC-2 uses CD3. As well es RA-4. Thats why someone recommended to use RA-4 as a replacement for ENC-2 developer.

I don't know about bleach bypass, but if you do, then the silver will still be there.

Of course it should and is.

But also in the undeveloped parts! E.g. on the sides where the perforation is. Thats my problem.

RA-4 is similar to C-41, but I wouldn't use one instead of the other

No. Its not.

C-41 developer uses CD4 as develeoper agent. As well as E-6.

RA-4 developer uses CD3.

ENC-2 developer uses CD3, too.

So the idea is to use RA-4 dilluted to 4+1 (a fifth more water to get same CD3 concentration) as a replacement for ENC-2 developer, since ENC-2 chemicals are hard to get in small units. (there are a kit from bellini but costs about 60 pounds ...)

ENC-2 is for cinefilm. Like the mentioned Kodak Vision3 films.

CD3 and CD4 are both derivates from p-phenylendiamin as all(?) used color developer agents. But I really have no clue in chemistry. Maybe alan_marcus can say more.

I did say similar, not same.

I did once develop some 5247 (Seattle Film Works days) in C41 chemistry. The Rem-Jet backing wipes off easily in the rinse water.

Yes, I also don't know the difference between CD-3 and CD-4.

You might need to get other components, such as bromide and pH, to be the same, also.