Some examples of striking differences in slide preservation

<p>Here are some actual examples I have just been working with.<br>

The top pair show on the left the present appearance of an Ektachrome slide processed by Kodak in 1960. On the right, is a quick-and-dirty fix of it using mostly autocolor and some adjustment of exposure of the same image.</p><div></div>

<p>JDM, That's quite striking. I wouldn't have guessed there was enough color information in the original to come up with the new one.</p>

<p>From a year later, here are two different Ektachrome slides. The top was processed by Drewery Photo and the bottom by Kodak, both in the year 1961.<br /> Now, <strong>all</strong> these slides in the images above and in those below were stored since 1961 <strong><em>in the same box and under the same conditions.</em></strong></p>

<p>The only difference here is the year of processing in the two Kodak examples, and in the images below in who did the processing.</p>

<p>You can see that the 1961 Kodak processing (although it's an indoor picture) is still reasonably "natural" in color, while the Drewery processed image has kept its hues, but has otherwise faded. A simple autocontrast goes a good way toward fixing the Drewery processed slide.</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

<p>What has your experience been and what happened between 1960 and 1961 in Ektachrome processing?</p>

<p>These were all scanned at the same time using a Canoscan FS4000US and VueScan software. Output in Adobe RGB and the images are close to what my eye sees looking at the slides directly in natural light.</p>

<p>Michael, I've always been amazed at how well many old, altered images can be rescued to some degree by autocolor and perhaps adding a little green, etc. For reasons not at all clear to me, even from Wilhelm's data, different examples seem to have lost different parts of the color range, but stayed reasonably stable in others.</p>

<p>I should say that these slides were "2nds" I had culled out and stuck in the box (a Kodak box the Kodak slides came from the processor in) back in 1961. I just found them in the back of my "photo cupboard" while I've been doing some rescanning and was intrigued by the differences among them.</p>

<p>The oldest chromes I have are from the mid-1960s, mostly taken by my grandparents. Those were all Kodachromes and all still look pretty good.</p>

<p>My own oldest chromes are from the late 1960s/early '70s, a mix of Kodachrome and Ektachrome 400. All were processed by Kodak. The Kodachromes still look good, although some appear to have been nibbled on by ciritters - maybe mold or mildew, I dunno. The Ektachromes have all gone orangey, like your first example, but haven't faded too much.</p>

<p>Offhand I can't recall getting any chromes processed by anyone other than Kodak until the late 1990s when I began using local labs for E6, so I don't have any really old slides for comparisons.</p>

I've come a long way but I doubt I will ever master

it fully. I far too often don't know when to stop and

keep thinking I can get something better and end

making it worse and have to start all over.

Sometimes it might take me several hours just to

make up my mind.

<p>I know the hardware, maintenance and overall quality of the E-6 line chemistry varied more with smaller labs than with Kodak or other large lab processing. </p>

<p>I'm all too aware of that, but Drewery was a major processor at the time, and the two sets of Ektachrome from 1960-1 were both processed by Kodak itself. These were all E-4, as a matter of fact.</p>

<p>I've had great luck scanning old faded film with some simple adjustments in curves with Photoshop. In many cases, I can set the white, black and gray points and quit there. (This may be similar to what autocolor does.) If there is no good neutral, I have to adjust individual red, green, and blue channels. Sometimes it helps to increase the saturation. This is a scan of a 1955 Kodacolor negative. I would estimate that over half of the yellow dye had faded.<br>

<img src="http://photos.randrews4.com/photos/510293455_7qAea-L.jpg" alt="" width="603" height="600" /><br>

This representation is far superior to any color print made in the 1950s. I wish I could fix the foreground focus (ala Lytro) as easily as I can fix the color and tone scale.</p>

<p>Scanning old color prints is much harder. There is usually a yellow stain. If there has been any light fading, the color channels are highly correlated (that is, the amount of fading on the underlyaing layers depends on how much dye is present in top layers). This is a color print from the early 50s. I attempted to use the same tools I use with film scans, but they are not as effective.</p>

<p><img src="http://photos.randrews4.com/photos/542656308_hbd7K-L.jpg" alt="" width="601" height="600" /></p>

<p>Mr. von Weinberg…</p>

<p>You asked, “What has your experience been and what happened between 1960 and 1961 in Ektachrome processing?” </p>

<p>Does the question imply that there was a major change in those years? I did not use Ektachrome in those years because my ones from the mid 50s were already turning red like your first example. I did get suckered into buying some for a camping trip with my son early summer, 1963. The camera shop owner swore that Ektachrome had changed its ways and would hold color long after Kodachrome lost its. </p>

<p>The result is below. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p><div></div>

Sometimes I use the perforated edges as a guide to get an idea of what might had been of the original

which seems to nail a portion quite closely but at the expense of excessive contrast which I suspect a

projector had managed to bring out. It's rather painstaking and time consuming and I've only done it twice,

but with over layering multiple density ranges from several samples of the same image made them exceed

beyond the original. I suppose it could be dubbed along HDR, but I'm quite conservative in not over doing it.

I've not done it with the Agfacolor image but this would likely be my next go at it. (Takes a lot of motivation!) In the sample below

it's brings out the best in lighter areas but the darker ones are quite dim.<div></div>

<p>Mr. von Weinberg… </p>

<p>Continuing my previous post, you can also see the Ektachrome here: </p>

<p><a href="../photo/11727291">http://www.photo.net/photo/11727291</a> </p>

<p>If you tap on the left arrow at the side of the picture you can see a Kodachrome taken shortly before. </p>

<p>When seeing the comments below both pictures, please realize the context of being in a series of many Kodachrome pictures over 70 years of Kodachrome from a Kodachrome enthusiast. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke </p>

<p>Mr. Watkins....</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing your historic piece of film. I'm sure many of us looked at it with interest. I know I did. </p>

<p>I'm wondering about the date of 1938. In the early '30s, before Kodachrome, Agfacolor was a screen plate type color film, I believe like its English competitor Dufaycolor. In the mid '30s, they came out with Agfacolor Neu. The word "Neu" was printed on the film edges. Just prior to 1940, they came out with the process they used until sometime after the Korean War, which to my eyes, looks like the cut you show above in both tonal characteristics and edge markings. </p>

<p>May I ask how you dated that particular film? Of course, I would consider the unlikely possibility you could have shot it yourself, not knowing your age. </p>

<p>Thank you again for the bit of history. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke </p>

<p> </p>

Thank you A.T. for highlighting these details for me

and please forgive me if I was in error. I so

rarely encounter Agfa slides from local estates

and none that were this old. I'll tell you what I

know thus far. There are two sets of dates... one

on coth tape that reads "Europe 1939" taped on

the outside and another that states "Germany

1938-1939" written on the index card inside. I've

only removed a few from their original glass

holders but the few I have were the one pictured

above and a few b&w. One of the b&w has

"EASTMAN T" with a single square date code

following which I think indicates 1937. The edge

lettering is a little awkward in it's print and closely

resembles what I've seen on "KODAK A.G." 16mm

b&w films and could be film from the plant

outside Berlin? Most of them are color and I may

encounter what you have described. Could it be

possible the slide is from 1939? It seems like

there was another box that originally paired with

this set as I can faintly make out imprint on the

index card from being underneath another card

as it was being written. I was able to make out

"Berlin" and "Munich." They seem a mix however.

Forgive me again A.T., I just re-read and caught

where you indicate "just prior" of 1940. I miss

catching words more often than I would like,

which is quite often apparent in my writtings as well

without at least a second effort of rewrite.

<p>In regard to my question about possible differences in Ektachrome film or the processing between 1960 and 1961, it was only that I was struck by the dramatic difference in preservation in the Kodak-processed images from the two years, <em>stored together in the same box</em> since 1962 or so.</p>

<p>I was sort of hoping that a retired Kodak person or somebody else who knows would tell us it this is a fluke or if there were some actual changes in film or process?</p>

<p>And thanks for the other examples. So often we (including me) post the "repaired" images, but we so seldom see where things started from. </p>

<p>BTW, here is the actual Kodak slide box they were in.</p><div></div>

<p>Mr. Wakins...</p>

<p>Forgive you? Hell no, nothing to forgive! Thank you for your info and example.</p>

<p>The first AGFA film like yours I saw was some taken by upperclassman at the USNA. Prewar (WWII), with a few exceptions like me, appointments to the USNA were doled out as favors to the sons of rich high dollar supporters of Senators and Congressmen. I was depression poor. My grandmother had sewn cardboard soles to an old pair of shoes for me to take the trip back east. They came loose in the last mile of walking to the campus. I walked onto the base barefooted with the shoe tops riding on top of my feet hoping nobody would notice. I had seen a little color film while going to the local J.C while waiting for an appointment to Annapolis. While there amongst the wealthy, I begin to see the films I had only read about in magazines, mostly Dufaycolor and AGFA Neu with a little Kodachrome. </p>

<p>After one Christmas leave, several other Cadets came back with new Contax and Leica cameras, with color film. I believe it was the Christmas of 1939. USNA catered to engineering types so we were all anxious to see the results. The AGFA looked different than previous shots and we noticed the edge markings were not the same as older batches. We had to destroy the factory mount as it came mounted whereas we had to mount the older stuff ourselves. </p>

<p>You may be right on the dates. I’m basing the above on memories of 73 years ago, not the most reliable kind. </p>

<p>I spent my first duty tour in the Pacific. By late 1944 I was stateside doing engineering and scientific work on Radar, Sonar and heretofore-unused communication RF. Our group would also analyze pictures of enemy antenna to see what type of como and Radar they were using at the various locations so we could jam it. Pictures taken by us were often Kodachrome. Captured film was often AGFA. I was struck how much fuller and richer the Kodachrome was and how fast the blues faded out of the AGFA as the reds turned pink. </p>

<p>Yet your AGFA looks quite as I remembered it from Annapolis with little fading. Perhaps it was their field processing whereas the complicated Kodachrome process was done in central labs. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p>

<p>Mr. von Weinberg… </p>

<p>“And thanks for the other examples. So often we (including me) post the "repaired" images, but we so seldom see where things started from.” </p>

<p>If that remark referred to my post to you, FYI almost all of the slide shown in “Days gone by on Kodachrome gone by (70 of the 75 years) 1st Critiques are description.” at</p>

<p><a href="../photodb/folder?folder_id=983141">http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=983141</a></p>

<p>were plain vanilla out of a Nikon Coolscan IV. The one exception was the one with the little girl and Easter eggs. That one was badly lacquer checked and I needed to use ICE to make it viewable. </p>

<p>My original purpose was to show what Kodachrome looked throughout its lifetime. After posting the majority, I realized it was also showing a changing USA, so I added time/era appropriate comments below most pictures. </p>

<p>A. T. Burke</p>

A.T.

 

I deeply enjoyed reading about your early and first-hand accounts with AgfaColor along with some of your history. What

an honor it is as well I might add because many of the finest people I've ever known or met in my lifetime had grown up tailored

with card board and flour sacks. I could have read for hours!

Do you have any information on how much total time the exampls shown have been projected and what the bulb wattage may have been? I have read that heat from the projector bulb degrades Kodachrome more than some other color films.

<p>In my cases, these were slides that were at most projected once, probably never though, as they were chosen on a light table and then were in dark storage in that box for 40 years or so.</p>