Pyro question

I am wanting to try some a pyro developer for 35mm and 120, I develop using a

patterson developing tank (super sytem 4), I have read that some pyro formulas

led to uneven developing in tanks so my question is which formula is best for

tank development(rollo pyro, pyrocatHD, etc.)?

 

thanks,

Todd

Hi Todd.

 

The best pyro developer I've used, and I've used most of them, is 510-Pyro. It is a highly concentrated, single solution developer that is simply diluted with water to make a working solution. The stock concentrate lasts virtually forever on the shelf. 510-Pyro can be used with any film or format, and is compatible with all development techniques, gives full film speed, and produces the finest grain of any pyro developer I know. You can find the formula and simple mixing instructions here:

 

http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/article-stainingdev.php

 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me directly.

 

Jay

Probably the two most popular Pyro developers are PMK and Pyrocat-HD. Some Pyro developers like PMK can be prone to streaking with some agitation methods, which is why frequent agitation is recommended. I personally like Pyrocat as it is much less prone to this type of thing and responds wonderfully to reduced agitation. It is also reported to be less toxic and gives greater film speed and finer grain than PMK. You can buy the liquid or powder kits from the Formulary or mix your own if you feel ambitious. The stuff is dirt cheap in kit form on a per roll basis so I never felt the need to mix up my own. Check out Sandy King's articles on Unblinkingeye.com. He is the creator of Pyrocat-HD and provides some great information.

For the record, the differences in toxity between pyrogallol, catechol, and hydroquinone are minor, and one should practice safe handling with any darkroom chemical. The streaking that can occur with PMK is not limited to pyro developers, and catechol developers are not immune. 510-Pyro is suitable for development in small tanks, with reduced agitation, without fear of streaking or uneven development. Many users practice semi-stand development with 510-Pyro with excellent results. 510-Pyro produces finer grain, and gives better film speed than any popular staining developer. Pyrocat HD has a shelf life of only months, while 510-Pyro can be expected to last years without losing potency. PMK and Pyrocat HD are both two-solution developers, which makes them more complicated in use, and vulnerable to cross contamination of the two solutions. 510-Pyro is the only single solution staining developer of its kind, and is used much like Rodinal or HC-110. 510-Pyro is truly a modern staining developer, and contains no sulfites, bromides, or iodides, which makes it consistent in use over a very wide range of films, both traditional and designer grain, and requires no special development technique, making for a seamless transition for users of standard non-staining developers. It is very nearly foolproof. 510-Pyro is not currently commercially made, but I have made up batches on a custom basis for individuals who hadn't the means or desire to make it up from the bulk chemicals.

 

Whichever developer you decide to use, I wish you the very best of luck, and hope you enjoy the special benefits that a staining developer can provide.

 

Jay<div></div>

Todd and Daniel,

 

I looked at your portfolios, and it's obvious that you're both accomplished photographers. Really nice work, guys.

 

Jay

I use mostly PMK in a Patterson System 4. I agitate for the first minute and then every 15 sec afterwards (1 inversion). I use a double roll tank with only one reel and 1000 ml of developer. This leaves some air in the tank so will be different then using a full tank. All this seems to work for me and I've been doing it for years. I've started to play with PyroCat mostly for rotary processing of sheet film where PMK can cause streaking. I tried it for 120 but still like the PMK better. Probably because I've found what works for me and I'm starting from the beginning with PyroCat. Since you're just starting out it may be better to just go with something like Jay's 510 Pyro if you can mix your own. I'm lazy and like the liquid kits. Also PyroCat will let you do certain things like reduced agitation processing that you can't do with PMK. So it also may be a better place to start. I just used an almost full bottle of pyroCat that sat for almost 10 months and it worked just fine. It's just with my straight processing tests PMK gives me a look I like better than PyroCat.

Jay, are you familiar with the pyro triethanolamine developer sold by

photographer's formulary? How does this compare with the 510 pyro that you

describe?

I use PMK a lot and have never had an issue with streaking. Its creator, Gordon Hutchings, recommends violent agitations for 2-3 seconds every 15 seconds and I've been using this technique. It works very well although it is a bit tiring. :)

 

PMK stock solution is very long lived (possibly the longest-lived of all developers; Rodinal might be as durable) which is another plus.

 

PMK isn't great for rotary processing, though.

Jay,

 

You mentioned in your article at

http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/article-stainingdev.php

that indeed you can use sodium sulfite in propylene glycol, but at high temperature -- I assume about 350F -- which is what I fry turkeys at.

 

By the way, I have about half of a five gallon can of PG in my basement, left over from when I was in the cosmetic industry. I've been using it to top off my car radiator; but it would be nice to use it for something more productive.

John,

 

510-Pyro is not very similar to Paul Farber's Triethanolamine Pyro developer sold by Photographers' Formulary. The PF developer is an aqueous solution pyro/metol developer with a high sulfite concentration, and is diluted 1:1 and used replenished. 510-Pyro is a pyro/phenidone/ascorbate developer, is sulfite-free, diluted 1:100-1:500, and used one-shot. Both developers contain pyro and TEA, but that's where the similarities end.

 

Jim,

 

PMK is made up in an aqueous solution, and will eventually oxidise. 510-Pyro is made up in TEA and will not oxidise like an aqueous solution will.

 

Dan,

 

a very small amount of sulfite will dissolve in PG at very high temps, but I strongly caution against the practice. Sulfite adds nothing of value to a PG-based developer, and the risk of severe burns is very real. Hypercat contains no sulfite and both of its constituent chemicals (catechol and ascorbic acid) go into solution at about 150F. It is very easy to mix, and produces extremely sharp, fine grained negs. Drop me a line if you feel like chewing the fat.

 

Jay

Although I don't use pyro developers often, I do use 510 pyro for the occasional semi-stand or minimal agitation negative. It is the best of the pyrogallol and pyrocatechin based developers that I have used. It gives me a nice green image stain on 400TMax, which I don't get with ABC. It yields much less fog stain than I get with either Pyrocat HD or PMK.

 

I'm not sure that agree with Jay about the full speed. I still rate all my TMax at 200. However, when I need a pyro developer to expand a really flat scene, 510 just can't be beaten. I showed one of my 510 semi-stand negs to Steve Sherman and he said that it was as perfectly exposed and developed as any he'd ever seen. After receiving such high praise, how could I use anything else?

Jay, is it possible to substitute PG for TEA in your 510 Pyro? I hate to go out and buy more chemistry when I have all that PG in my basement.

 

PS: If you want, I can mail you a quart bottle... Just drop me an email with your address.

Jim,

 

I've seen your work and appreciate you lending your expertise to this discussion. The value of feedback from expert users cannot be overestimated.

 

Dan,

 

you can make 510-Pyro up in PG, but you'll have to use a separate alkali solution, and forego many of the benefits that 510-Pyro has to offer. Make up a 20% sodium carbonate solution, and use it 1:1 with the PG concentrate, so that a working dilution becomes 1:1:100, with one part PG concentrate, one part 20% sodium carbonate, and 100 parts water. You'll have to do some testing to find best dilution and development times. Alternatively, you might consider making Hypercat instead. Hypercat contains only catechol and ascorbic acid in PG, and uses a separate sodium or potassium carbonate alkali solution. Either way, if I can be of any help, just let me know. Thank you for your generous offer of PG, but I'm all stocked up. Good luck.

 

Jay

Jay,

 

You wrote "you can make 510-Pyro up in [propylene glycol], but you'll have to use a separate alkali solution, and forego many of the benefits that 510-Pyro has to offer."

 

Do you mean benefits with the developed film, or benefits from simpler mixing?

 

By the way, I have a liter of PG on the stove with my fryer thermometer in it, heating up to the 371F boiling point as I write this. [bTW, I'm also a reasonably accomplished chef.]

Jay

 

I have been using HC110/Tri-X 4X5 with an old JOBO tank and uniroller base. Tri-X 120mm I use reels and tanks, inversions for first minute then two inversions every 30 seconds. Will the 510 work with these types of development?

 

I'd be interested in buying a premixed kit to try, rather than buy bulk chemicals up front. Didn't have high school chemistry :)

 

Mike

Dan,

 

I meant both. TEA imparts more than just pH to the developer. One of the impurities in commercial grade TEA is DEA, which is a silver solvent, and might contribute to the very fine grain produced by 510-Pyro, one of the characteristics that makes this developer so unique among pyro developers. By substituting sodium carbonate for TEA, the developer will work at a higher pH, and without the benefit of the DEA, both of which might, in theory, lead to more grain and shorter development times for a given dilution. This is less important for LF than for rollfilms. If you decide to give this a try, please keep in touch, and let me know what you discover.

 

Mike,

 

yes, 510-Pyro will work very well with the development regimes you're using, and you might experiment with reduced agitation for your 120 film, for enhanced sharpness and film speed. You can order the chemicals for 510-Pyro as a pre-measured kit from Artcraft Chemicals:

 

http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/scripts/shopplus.cgi?DN=artcraftchemicals.com&CARTID=%cartid%&ACTION=action&FILE=/kits.htm

 

(Just follow the directions in the "name that kit" option at the bottom of the page)

 

in 250ml, 500ml, or 1 liter sizes, very reasonably. These kits are made up very much like any powder developer; just add the powdered contents of the package to 2/3 the total volume of solvent (in this case, TEA) at the prescribed temperature (150F), stir until dissolved, and top up to final volume. I would get my TEA from The Chemistry Store where it's much cheaper than Artcraft (sorry Artcraft).

 

Making the developer up in this way is the best of both worlds, with both worlds being; 1) making up your own developer from scratch, and 2)buying a commercially made developer. You get the convenience of a pre-measured, powder developer like Xtol, and the economy of scratch-made developer, and all you have to do is substitute TEA for water.

 

The 150F mixing temp is not critical, and doesn't need to be measured with a thermometer. Just add the dry chems to room temp TEA @ 2/3 final volume, and heat with stirring until all the chemicals have dissolved. Allow to cool, top up to final volume, and that's it! The 250ml kit from Artcraft is really cheap, and will make 25-125 liters of working solution, depending on the dilution. More than enough to get familiar with (and addicted to) the developer. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me directly. Good luck.

 

Jay

Thanks Jay, I will give it a try. Cut the 120 agitation by half?

 

Mike

Jay,

 

Thank you... I follow what's going on now about the pH of TEA vs propylene glycol.

 

I'm going on vacation for ~10 days; so I'll order some TEA and pyrogallol, and play with it when I get back.

Mike,

 

reducing agitation will increase development time, sharpness, and local contrast, but continuous agitation is perfectly legitimate, and produces a smooth, grainless look. Agitate to taste.

 

Dan,

 

enjoy your trip, and I look forward to your impressions of this developer.

 

Jay

Thanks Jay, and I really like the shot above.

 

Mike

Hi Jay,

 

I was interested in trying out 510-pyro and contacted artcraft but the told me they do not

sell kits in 250ml, 500ml, 1L etc. Just ingredients to make up 400ml as follows:

 

20 gr ascorbic acid - $2.00

40 grams pyro - $7.00

1 gram phenidone - $0.50

 

TEA by the pint $8.00

 

Shame, looks like I am late to the game... Do you have any other sources for the kit?

 

Regards,

Antonio