Photographers Formulary TF-4 Fixer?

Has anyone used TF-4 fixer for films? Can it be used with all types and brands of B&W films? What are the fixing times? Do you use a hardener with it? Thank you.

<p>

Francis

I've switched to TF-4 exclusively. I don't know of any silver-based

film that won't work with it. Chromogenic films, however, require

standard color chemistry.

<p>

Fixing times are incredibly fast. I usually clear the film in 30

seconds. I don't use a hardener, and don't seem to need one. Since my

whole process (develop-rinse-fix) is now alkalai, the film never

seems to soften at all.

<p>

I recommend this fixer highly.

How do you work out that your film never softens in an all alkali

process Charlie? Alkaline baths are precisely what <i>does</i> soften

gelatine. Gelatine is a protein, and proteins are broken down by

alkaline solutions. That's why alkaline chemicals feel slippery to the

fingers; they're dissolving the outer layer of skin.<br>If you don't

believe this, put some film into a 10% caustic soda bath for a few

minutes and see how hard the emulsion is then.

Fixing times: 3 to 5 minutes for film; 30 seconds for RC paper, 60

seconds for fiber. No stop bath necessary. Mix with distilled water

for a reduction in fumes. Hardner not required. Good stuff.

Regarding Pete's question:

<p>

How do I determine that alkakai fixer doesn't soften the emulsion?

Empirically. The way I do with most things.

<p>

The 1st time I tray-developed 8x10 film (single sheet) the emulsion

had a "solid" feel to it during developing and rinsing. Immediately

upon submersing in the fixer (Kodak Fixer, at the time) which is acid

base, it got soft, and I gouged it with my finger tips, not my finger

nails.

<p>

With TF-4 this doesn't happen.

<p>

Now whether it's the absolute pH determining the softness of the

emulsion, or the change in pH (delta-pH) causing expansion of the

emulsion as the absorbed developer out-gases or expands the emulsion,

I cannot say. I don't really care. I am only report what I

experienced.

<p>

Others may have different experience, as water pH varies quite a bit

throughout the country.

Further to Pete's question:

<p>

Refer to my 1st post: I said never "seems", not that it never does.

There is quite a difference in meaning, so please don't add meaning

that isn't there. I'm usually quite specific in my choice of words.

Well, all I can say Charlie is that your experience is completely at

odds with my own, and with all known facts about the behaviour of

gelatine in acid and alkali solutions.<br>I used to carry out

precision copy work on both Lith and continuous tone film, from 10x8

up to 20x16 sheets, which had to be dish developed.<br>Those times

when I didn't wear surgical gloves, I could feel the emulsion

softening in the developer, and immediately hardening up in the acid

stop bath. After it had been in the fixer for a couple of minutes, it

was very abrasion resistant.<p>Another thing that wories me about TF4

is that it's claimed to be 'archival quality'. How do they

know?<br>Here's my own empirical evidence: I have a personl collection

of negatives, in formats from 35mm to 5x4, going back more than 30

years. I've <i>always</i> used an acid hardening-fixing bath.

<b>None</b> of those negatives show the slightest sign of chemical

deterioration or damage. Not even a detectable change of image colour.

Not even on films that were just done as a quick test, where the

fixing and washing time were shortened.<br><i>However</i>, two

complete 35mm films have been lost to fungal attack, and suspiciously,

they were processed in chemicals that weren't directly under my

supervision. I suspect that the difference may be that the fixer

didn't contain any hardener, since they were given my usual wash

time.<br>The storage conditions for the mouldy negs has been exactly

the same as the others; in fact they were in the middle of a ring

binder of glassine envelopes, sandwiched between perfectly good

film.<p>Acid hardening fixer has been around a long time, and its

results have stood the test of time. TF4 hasn't.

Further to Pete's latest post:

<p>

Pete, I want to re-iterate that my experience may not have been an

issue of alkai softening (or not)the emulsion, but more of a

mechanical phenomenon as the alakai developer and acid fixer mix.

Most chemical reactions are exothermic or endothermic, and the

resulting temperature change which could soften (or seem to soften?)

the emulsion (perhaps moreso than the alkalai?), and the by products

of the reaction could outgas, or otherwise cause a dimensional change

resulting in a softening. Most parts of the photographic process

involve multiple actions.

<p>

On the other hand, perhaps it isn't the emulsion at all that softens,

but the top anti-scratch coat?

<p>

I must admit that acid-hardening fixers have generally worked well

for me, but it seems that keeping the whole process on one side or

the other of pH 7 seems a better situation than crossing the line.

<p>

In over 30 years and I have had only one instance where the negatives

have not remained stable, though the process was the same. And the

only 2 times I damaged negatives with acid fixer were:

1) when I used Kodak rapid fixer without the hardener (early in my

photgraphic life), and

2) the 8 x 10 sheet film I first mentioned.

<p>

I've avoided acid stop baths with films lately as I've had several

instances of pin holes. I live in the San Francisco bay area, and our

water has lots of impurities, so I use distilled water for developer

and fix. Perhaps that the source of my experiences?

<p>

Perhaps I'll experiment to see if I now get the same results as you.

<p>

As far as TF-4 being archival, your comments cannot be refuted. It

hasn't been around long, and may not be archival. Personally, I don't

care if my negatives don't outlive me.

TF-4 is an excellent film fixer, especially when using (and Pete is

going to hate this!) pyro developers. Because it is alkaline, it will

not remove the pyro stain. Ilford no longer recommend hardening

fixers, claiming that the emulsion is 'pre-hardened' during

manufacturing. The tanning action of pyro is a much better 'hardener'

especially because it takes place at the beginning of the processing

proceedure in the developer. As to the overused 'archival' qualities

of TF-4 or any other fixer: this is a moot point. After washing the

film should contain NO fixer, hardener, or anything else. Providing

the film has been completely fixed, the only thing that will affect

the silver in the emulsion would be contanimation, sulfer fumes for

example. Once washed and dried, hardeners have no effect on the

hardness or scratch resistance of the emulsion, contrary to popular

misconception. How do we know TF-4 is archival? The same way we know

anything else is 'archival.' There are special laboratory aging tests

that can determine this sort of thing, but it is really not important

as long as the film has been given a proper wash. Of course if you

put film (or any organic substance) into a 10% solution of caustic

soda, it will be destroyed. Try putting film into a 10% solution of

sulfuric acid and see if disolves! Silly argument, really.

Epson recently used these 'special laboratory ageing tests' on their

so-called archival inks and papers, and pronounced a figure of 100

years fade resistance.<br>The result? A real life expectancy of about

2 weeks before their prints turned orange.