Nikon Introduces the D610 DSLR

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by shuncheung, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Nikon is introducing a new FX-format DSLR, the D610, although as far as features go, it is perhaps 98%, 99% the same as the entry-level D600, introduced 13 months ago in September, 2012: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00aofD
    Nikon USA has made it very clear that the D610 is the successor to the D600; i.e., the D600 will soon be officially discontinued, although some remaining stock will still be available new for a short while. Traditionally, Nikon probably would have called this a "D600S," indicating minor changes from the D600, but this time they choose to use a different model number D610.
    The D610 has a few minor improvements from the D600:
    1. Its maximum frame rate goes up to 6 frames/sec (fps), from the D600's 5.5 fps.
    2. The D610 has a new Quiet Continuous mode; it can capture in the quiet mode at 3 fps.
    3. The D610 has improved white balance, which can use face recognition, blue sky detection, etc.
    Otherwise, the D610 is still a 24MP FX body, with the same 39-AF-point Multi-CAM 4800 AF module, including 9 cross-type AF points among the 39. It uses the same MB-D12 optional battery pack/vertical grip and the same EN-EL15 battery.
    Nikon has made it very clear that there is a new shutter mechanism to support the new frame rate and quiet mode. To put it bluntly, there is little doubt that the D610 is introduced to separate itself from all the negative publicity from the oil/dust issue from the D600, and the original shutter mechanism seems to be the culprit. (That problem was first reported by Roger Cicala, the owner of LensRental.com: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj) While some members here got into very stubborn oil/dust issues that require multiple repairs and even shutter replacements, my personal opinion is that most D600 are ok, but there is no doubt that there is a lot of bad publicity on that model.
    Personally, the disappointments on the D610 are:
    1. Nikon does not use the 51-point Multi-CAM 3500 AF module, which provides better AF point coverage on FX.
    2. There is still no separate AF-ON button, although there is clearly plenty of room for one.
    Otherwise, the D610 is mostly the same camera as the D600.
    • In the US, the D610, body only, is $1999.95, $100 lower than the introductory price for the D600 a year ago.
    • With the 24-85mm/f3.5-4.5 AF-S VR lens, the kit is $2599.95.
    • There are additional kit options with lenses such as the 28-300mm AF-S VR, memory cards, and laptop bags.
    For those of you who want to save some money, remaining D600 bodies are now the "old" model, and you may be able to find discounts while supply lasts. Again, I think the D600 is still a fine camera, but if you get one, please make sure to check for any dust/oil issue on the sensor. If there are problems, get it replaced quickly.
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    The images for Nikon news distribution, Copyright Nikon Inc.
     
  2. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

  3. so, essentially this is a do-over model at a higher price (refurb d600s were getting close to that magical $1500 full-frame price point) with a new shutter and minor improvements. nikon really should have thrown in the better AF module.
     
  4. Holy crap. I thought for sure the rumored specs of the D610 were fake. There's no way Nikon would release a badge engineered camera, and there's no way they'd be stupid enough to release a camera with poorer specs than their "top of the line" DX camera (the D7100). Instead of taking a D7100 and dropping the D600 sensor in it, they took a D600 and changed the badge. Wow. Of note, the D7100 has: a stereo microphone and more advanced autofocus, a higher resolution LCD, a higher max shutter speed, faster flash sync speed, and 60fps 1080i video. Surely some of those changes take some effort, but Nikon's included a new shutter mechanism and still caps the max speed at 1/4000th? WTF?
    Yes, the D600 is capable of taking fantastic photographs, that's not the problem. It's that Nikon appears to be doing as little as they can to control the fallout. The D610 offers neither innovation nor evolution. This "new" model ensures that the entry-level FX lags behind by another generation, and it just underscores how Nikon appears to be merely resting on its laurels (or attempting to). The name "D600 Refurb" sure seems to fit. Pentax announced a camera with a selective anti-aliasing filter, Canon and Fuji have on-chip PDAF. Nikon has, what? A brand new shutter mechanism that won't contaminate the sensor? *yawn*
    For the record I've not seen any problems with oil since Nikon replaced the mirror box on my D600. On the second trip back to Nikon they proactively replaced the shutter mechanism.
     
  5. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Eric, calling the D610 having a "higher price" than the D600 is a major stretch. The D600 started at $2099.95 thirteen months ago, although Nikon started to discount it fairly quickly. I expect discounts on the D610, at least with the 24-85 kit. It makes little sense for the lens to add $600 to the kit.
    It is highly unfair to compare refurb prices for the D600 vs. new price for the D610. I just spent many hours in the last 2 weeks to check a refurb 80-400 AF-S VR and finally concluded that it not acceptable at 400mm, f5.6, and I also spent a fair amount of money on shipping back and forth: Refurbished Nikon 80-400mm AF-S VR from Adorama
    After getting burned over and over, I have gotten very skeptical on the quality from Nikon USA's refurb process.
    As far as the AF module goes, apparently Nikon puts their 2nd-best AF module on the D600/D610 to distinguish it from the D800. That remains to be somewhat a weakness on the D610. A D610 with the Multi-CAM 3500 would have killed a lot of D800 sales.
    Most likely, consumer/prosumer DSLRs such as the D600 are on a two-year product cycle. The D610 is really the same camera as the D600 but hopefully without the baggage from the oil/dust issue. Expect a D620 a year from now, prior to Photokina 2014, for some real changes from the D600.
     
  6. Shun -- I wouldn't even go so far as to say the D610 has the lesser AF module to differentiate it from the D800. Compare the D610 to the D7000 and D7100. It seems to me that the D610 is, at best, a rush job. Were they not dogged by a reputation for oil contamination, I'd expect Nikon would have pulled in all the upgrades from the D7100. Would a D610 with a stereo microphone have killed D800 sales? Doubtful.
     
  7. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Alex, there should be little doubt that the D610 is a rush job, inserted into the middle of probably a two-year product cycle. That is why most of the components are the same as those on the D600.
    During our conference call with Nikon USA a little earlier, they made it very clear that the D610 is the D600's successor. It is quite obvious that Nikon wants to get rid of the D600 and it baggages ASAP. However, IMO the D800's left AF issue was perhaps even worse, but Nikon hasn't replaced it by any D800S or D810 so far.
    As I wrote earlier, for real changes from the D600, we need to wait another year.
     
  8. I'm happy to see Nikon respond so well to the issues that plagued the D600, thereby shedding bad light on the icon-Nikon. I had made the point in earlier discussions that this move in precisely what it would take for me to buy this camera. It's not clear yet whether Nikon found another source builder of their shutter module, but a different shutter non the less, and thereby acknowledging the oil issue that in my view would be totally unacceptable. It's painful to hear some of the stories in this very forum regarding the oil issue, but, again its a fix! Badge, or no badge, its a fix, and I think that a 24.5 megapixel camera in such a compact envelope at this price point is going to sell the heck out of 610s. I have 8 Nikkor lenses to choose from as I make the leap to my first Digital SLR. Confidence is a good thing.
     
  9. So the D610 is a "re-warm" of the D600 to get rid of the stigma associated with the oil/debris issue that Nikon never officially owned up to. Shortly after the introduction of the D600, Nikon admitted that the camera isn't worth the $2100 asking price by giving customers a new 24-85 lens for free (the same lens that Nikon now wants us to believe is worth $600 again). That the initial price was too high is now confirmed with the introduction of the D610 that comes in at the same price level as the D600 when it was eventually permanently discounted. And instead of taking the chance to right the wrongs of the old model, the new camera still relies on the pull of its 24MP FX sensor that is its only claim to fame - seeing that it still comes in the same compromised package (and hopefully sans oil and debris).
    Essentially, the D610 is to the D600 what the SB910 is to the SB900 - a bug fix. And a missed opportunity.
    We will probably never know how much the D600 fiasco hurt Nikon financially - it certainly did a lot of public relations harm. One can only wonder if it wouldn't have been a better move to recall the D600 once the oil/debris issue became obvious.
     
  10. I'm wondering how long it will take to stock this item? What's the usual eta off of news like this?
     
  11. The D610 will start shipping on October 18, 2013.
     
  12. I'm wondering just how badly Nikon want to rid themselves of ALL D600s? Real big discounts maybe, would any sane person risk it?
    Forget the lesser AF module and the possible oil spots, as a tethered studio MF or zoomed LV AF camera, the sensor is 99.99% as good as the D800's. The DR, Noise etc are all very similar.
    If it goes the way of the V1 discounts, I might be interested.
     
  13. Shun, I agree that the next revision will likely contain more significant changes. The approach that Nikon's taken smacks of utter disrespect for their customers for two reasons:
    1.) Instead of trying to right a wrong, and make D600 owners whole they've completely abandoned D600 owners and sped up its obsolescence. Likewise, they've locked the D610 owners into a similarly rapid cycle of obsolescence. Either that, or they've committed to keeping their entry-level FX body a generation behind the competition.
    2.) Yes, this camera is a rush job, but it's also a swing and a miss. The one feature people are hoping for (mirror/shutter assemblies that won't contaminate the sensor) is the one feature Nikon won't talk about. Then there's the matter of the low hanging fruit. Again, the one feature Nikon wants potential customers to focus on (the shutter) is the one piece that really ought to have been improved. Yet it's got the same flash sync speed and same maximum speed. At best this merely cements the D610's place in the lineup below that of the D7100. At worst, it's a tacit admission that the shutter assembly probably wasn't changed from the later D600s -- which might scare off potential customers.
    I'm hesitant to chalk this up to cultural differences as other Japanese (photo) companies have taken a much more customer friendly approach. Canon recalled many of their 1D3 and 1DX bodies over autofocus issues. Nikon left its D4/D800 customers flapping in the wind. Fuji's released a couple of firmware updates with significant improvements and customer driven new features for their X series bodies. Nikon's decided to release a new model and abandon the D600 instead of offering firmware updates.
    As for me, I've learned my lesson. The D600 was my first, and last, purchase of a new (not used) Nikon product. At least with a refurb, I'm only going to be out maybe $60-$80 for shipping it back to Nikon. Or with a competitor's product I hopefully wouldn't be dealing with such a tone deaf company in the first place.
    Mike -- yes, I'd risk $200 on a D600. Considering that Nikon's LA repair center was fairly proactive about replacing bits I'd probably risk getting a fire sale priced D600. Given how similar the D600/610 are, I wonder if Nikon's just going to recall the existing stock, slap a new label and knob on them and ship them out as brand spanking new D610s.
     
  14. I'm not disappointed. I have always felt that the D600 was a marginal camera at best. Even absent the oil issue it just didn't have the features that it ought to have. And the autofocus problem is a real big deal which Nikon still hasn't fixed.
    This looks like they did exactly the minimum they could do to legitimately rebadge the D600 without retooling their whole production line.
    Some people comment that they believe that this full frame camera ought to have the same features as the D7100. I agree to some extent. At its price point there is no excuse for a camera as limited as the D600. I do not believe however that full frame is a "superior format" therefor all full frame cameras must equal or exceed DX in features.
    I look forward to a major upgrade in the D600 price range. This is sure not it. If they did make a full frame camera with all of the features of the D7100 they would seriously challenge the D800. I don't see an upside for them to do that at this time.
    So OK Nikon. You have admitted you have a problem and taken the minimum stand required to fix it. Yawn.
     
  15. 2nd hand selling prices here in the UK (ebay) for used D600s are between £825 and £1200, at today's £:$, that's about $1320 to $1920 body only.
    If they fire-sale to under 1\2 that, say £375 - £400, $600 - $640, I'd get one....
    ...But I don't think it'll be that low...:-(
    Does the D600/D610's AF module go down to f8?
     
  16. A lot of folks here seem to be whining about Nikon's missed opportunity, saying that the D610 is lagging behind the
    competition. Well when you consider that the only othe FF body at this price point is the Canon 6D, where is it lagging?
    If you want the features of a D7100, buy it. Too bad about that fast 16/f1.4 DX lens you don't have. Nikon had a problem
    with the shutter assemblies, they may have fixed it. They re-badged the body with a new number. They are not the only
    company in this world that does this.
     
  17. Hhmm.
    I don't know about this one. It all seems pretty shady. I've been considering another purchase for some months now, yo-yoing between the 7100 and 600. Every time I think the 600 would be good that damn AF module rears its head. Every time I think of the 7100 the non-existent D400 rears its head! I know the 7100 would be a significant upgrade from my 5100, I know it seems to be getting made properly, I know it's the best APS-C out there, but I just don't really want one. Literally today I decided I should do the sensible thing and just get a 7100 at the end of the month. I know some of the membership on PN have been bearing with Nikon, whilst feeling left behind and this move has pulled me up short, almost like a little portent to stop me from buying. This is a weazly little move which does not make me feel happy about giving this company 7,500 RMB of my money.
     
  18. I think it's good that Nikon introduced a new model with hopefully the shutter/oil issue fixed. It is unfortunate that such issues arise in the first place but I know a few D600 users who don't seem to have the oil issue to the point that they'd have noticed it. A full recall of (a million?) cameras seems unwarranted for - but Nikon should be able to fix the cameras that come into service (with new shutter units if necessary) - it's their responsibility.
    And the autofocus problem is a real big deal which Nikon still hasn't fixed.
    Are you talking about the D800 (and D4?) "left AF point" issue? In what sense is it not "fixed" yet? I know several people with D4's and D800's personally and none of them had this issue. From what I understand, fixing the issue requires a complex process (including measurement and calibration hardware and software) and in the beginning Nikon authorized service centres didn't have the know-how or equipment to properly do it. Then the procedures for the fix were developed and service personnel trained to do it. The chatter on that seems to have died down so I can only think that most users' cameras work fine and most of the rest have been fixed by service. My D800 was recently AF adjusted (it didn't have the left AF issue but it took an impact and the AF was backfocusing after that relative to what it was before) and it works better than new now (smaller fine tune settings required across the board) so Nikon service seems to be doing what it's supposed to i.e. fix issues and not introduce new ones.
    With respect to the D610 getting the AF system from the D4/D800, I agree it would be nice but then it's price would be the same as that of the D800. The D610 caters to a buyer who puts a high priority on full frame, compactness, good viewfinder, and excellent image quality, but not necessarily excellent off center AF performance. The Canon 5D Mk II showed that there is a substantial market for this kind of camera (high image quality but weaker than top of the line AF). So what is Nikon to do, just persist in making more expensive cameras? What does a landscape photographer, for example, need a Multi-CAM 3500 module for? They'd use live view to focus most of the time anyway, if they care about detail. Nikon has introduced many new high quality moderately priced FX lenses such as 28/1.8, 50/1.8, 85/1.8 AF-S, 70-200/4 AF-Swhich would seem to mate well with the budget of a D610 buyer, and the compactness of the four lenses mentioned (as well as a few other lenses introduced earlier) seem well matched to the body size of the D610. In going for lighter weight and compactness, some aspects of the body were compromised relative to the D800. I am sure that putting a Multi-CAM 3500 into the camera would substantially increase its cost (if nothing else, the work required to calibrate it) and cause a redesign of the area around the mirror box that contains the AF module. At this point Nikon probably can't put it in an FX camera at a $2000 price point due to the cost of the other parts of the camera and the AF module together. If you want Multi-CAM 3500 in an FX camera, you have the D800/D800E/D4 and second hand D3s/D700/D3X/D3 to choose from. It's not like there is a lack of options really. Sometimes it seems that Nikon must cater to every single photographers' specific feature list individually. Custom cameras - with Ashton Martin prices?
    Even though 24MP 6fps would fit my needs better than 36MP 4fps, and would prefer the D610's higher eyepoint to the very short eyepoint of the D800 I still use the D800 and it has worked out fine for me. Rather continue to complain, I have adjusted, it's as simple as that. Ideally I would take the 24MP 6fps in an D4 body but they don't make them that way. Big deal. I work with what is available to me, and have discovered that even though 36MP is ridiculous overkill for many things it does facilitate action photography in a different way than high fps; it lets you frame more freely and photograph an approaching subject from an earlier point. I was just photographing landing aircraft with the D800 and 80-400 AF-S on Friday and I was very happy how well the images that I captured at 600mm to 800mm field of view (focal length of the lens was 400mm) printed. Yet earlier images as the aircraft crossed overhead I was filling the frame at 80mm. So I used the 5x range of the zoom lens, and got a 2X bonus by taking advantage of the high pixel count of the camera. Similarly I have shot figure skating with the D800 and 200/2 and up to a crop of 2X I'm getting still very good results that print well enough for my uses and with the lens I can cover a good part of the ice, whereas if I were using a 12MP or 16MP camera I couldn't do that, the image quality at further distances would be compromised more than it is with the D800. What you lose in one area you gain in another.
     
  19. And here I thought it was just Pentax that re-released the same camera with one "new" feature and called it a "Mark II" or somesuch. :)
     
  20. Settle down guys. It's only a year into the product cycle. This is just an excuse to change the model number so that the
    camera can be mentioned in public without reference to sensor spots. With a few nominal features for cover. Why are you
    expecting more?
     
  21. I wonder if Nikon will begin replacing problem shutter mechanisms on returned D600s with the new and improved D610 shutters. If it's the same camera, the new
    shutter mechanism should fit.
     
  22. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    It is actually a very common practice for Nikon to introduce a new model to replace an old one that has a major known issue and/or a lot of bad plublicity. For example, they replaced the D70 by the D70S barely after a year because of D70 BGLOD, which was apparently a circuit board issue. Towards the latter part of the D70's product cycle, Nikon was already using improved, problem-free circuit boards on the D70, but the stigma remained so that they introduced the D70S instead. There are three minor differences between the D70 and D70S, very similar to the situation between the D600 and D610.
    I'm hesitant to chalk this up to cultural differences as other Japanese (photo) companies have taken a much more customer friendly approach. Canon recalled many of their 1D3 and 1DX bodies over autofocus issues. Nikon left its D4/D800 customers flapping in the wind. Fuji's released a couple of firmware updates with significant improvements and customer driven new features for their X series bodies. Nikon's decided to release a new model and abandon the D600 instead of offering firmware updates.​
    Alex, those are highly unfair comments:
    1. For the D70 BGLOD problem I mentioned above, Nikon had a service advisory and they would fix all D70 with that particular problem past the one-year warranty period. Essentially Nikon would fix D70 with problems forever, provided that they still have parts available: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2005/9/28/nikonadvisory
    2. Practically all early D5000 were recalled: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00U1LR
    3. A large batch of EN-EL15 batteries was recalled last year: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00aJHo At the time I had a loaner D800 from Nikon USA, and its battery was among the recall list. Even though I promised not to use that battery since I had older ones from my D7000, they wanted that battery back immediately.
    As Roger Cicala suggested in his original article that started all the discussion on the D600 oil/dust issue, the problem seems to be the design on the D600's shutter, which leaves a larger gap. That is why some D600 that are returned for repair got a shutter replacment, and the D610 has a different shutter now. That is a hardware issue that is not fixable via firmware upgrade. Otherwise, Nikon would have done that a long time ago.
    But IMO, while some D600 indeed has that issue, it is greatly exaggerated over the internet. Plenty of people have no problems with their D600, such as "our own" Matt Laur. I, for one, would not hesitate to buy a new D600, but I would immediately check for any dust/oil issue.
    However, my personal experience with Nikon USA refurbished lenses is terrible. Three out of three that I have experience with had to be returned. (Two of those I bought myself, one from B&H and one from Adorama.) I may give refurb one more try some time in the future, but I am highly skeptical about refurb lenses.
     
  23. With respect to the D610 getting the AF system from the D4/D800, I agree it would be nice but then it's price would be the same as that of the D800.​
    Ilkka, I think that overstates the case quite a bit. Consider the D5200, which has the DX version of the Multi-CAM 4800 AF system used in the D600/610, vs the D7100, which has the DX version of the Multi-CAM 3500 used in the D800. The difference in list price between the D5200 and D7100 is $400. Considering the other differences between those two bodies, I can't help but think that the difference in price attributable to the AF system is pretty small -- much smaller, at any rate, than the price difference between the D600 and D800. While the FX versions may impact that price difference a bit, I don't see why there would be a large change.
    That said, it seems clear to me that Nikon's approach is to determine a target price point, then design a camera that meets that price point using the best mix of current technologies. Since they aren't designing cameras specifically for me (wouldn't that be nice!), the mix they choose is not always the one I would have chosen. While I would like to have a low-cost FX camera to replace/supplement my aging D3, my main use is action shooting, so the AF is more important to me than it would be for someone who is primarily a landscape shooter, as in your example.
    Like you, though, I'm satisfied that the products I do have (D3, D7100) will let me get shots. When an FX body comes along that better meets my needs and is at a price that makes sense for me, I'll get it. In the mean time, I suspect the people who get a D610 will find it quite capable.
     
  24. It's not a big deal nor a feature I would often (ever?) use, but I've wondered in the past why it wasn't possible on bodies with a "quiet" mode to shoot in that mode continuously. In this case, though, I'm imagining a conversation between marketing and engineering in which the marketing guys are saying, "we need at least one more new feature if we're going to call this a new product." I guess if this mode never shows up on other bodies, we'll know that's all it was!
     
  25. pge

    pge

    I love reading these comments. Half the people say Nikon is disrespecting their customers and half say they are respecting their customers by releasing this model.
    When I saw this post, before I clicked on it I thought to myself, new or same focus module? Its the same, so basically the same camera.
     
  26. As new cameras come out I take a close look at them, to see what they would do for me. I'm just not seeing anything new here at all, except for a possibly more reliable shutter (which I already have in the D7100.) Not putting in the D7100's AF system was a huge mistake, I think. No doubt they could have done it and it wouldn't have affected the price all that much. Maybe Nikon was afraid no one would buy a D800 if they made the D610 more capable.
    Kent in SD
     
  27. Ha! the first email offering pre-order is here (UK)!
    £1799 body only.......and £2299 with the 24-85mm.................that's ~$2900 & $3700!
    OK, if the price quoted in the OP is $2000 and $2600, how much will you actually pay in the USA?
    So the launch price of the D610 is roughly double the current D600 2nd hand price.
     
  28. It seems to make sense to me. It follows Nikon's fixing a major issue by issuing a new body, getting more people excited and such. Why would you complain? I agree with Ilkka - use it and enjoy it. My camera body has been surpassed by the D7100 in IQ only but none of the other things I use to keep myself in business.
    I'm in the market to upgrade my D300s but I need 10-pin shutter, PC sync socket and pro horsepower. My only current options are the D4, D3x, D800(e). They're either out of my budget or don't cover other work well enough. So, like Ilkka, I wait and adapt.
     
  29. The bottom line for me is that my D600 has suddenly dropped in value (how much remains to be seen) as it's now 'last years model'.
    That means if I want to think about replacing it it's going to cost me a lot more.
    I have lost my respect for Nikon if indeed this camera is produced only so they can shake of the marred image of the D600.
     
  30. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

  31. Given the residual skepticism around the D600, potential D610 buyers will need some serious encouragement(i.e., discounts) if Nikon hopes to move these. The big problem remains D600 inventory. Anyone for bum shutter roulette?
     
  32. Here is my opinion, for what it is worth, coming from a consumer that Nikon is mostly likely targeting (D600 owner, photography enthusiast/hobbyist). I will not be upgrading to the D610. I have been anxiously awaiting the announcement of an upgrade to the D600 as I have been less than thrilled with my experience with this camera. Coming from the D7000, I was extremely excited to get my hands on a full frame camera. I regret my move. I feel that the auto-focus on my D7000 was superior to that of the D600, and I was really hoping that would be the improvement to the upgrade to the D600. I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to have that improvement. Besides that, I had an awful experience with Nikon repair to repair my autofocus issue I was having. They fixed the problem, but sent me home with a dirty camera and had to send it back 2 more times to get them to clean it. I realize this has nothing to do with the topic, I just feel as though I'm slipping a little with my loyalty to Nikon, and this doesn't help. Now, I'm considering "downgrading" to the D7100 (although, I feel this would be an upgrade) to get the better autofocus system because I'm not sure I want to keep the D600 for 2 more years.
     
  33. Here is my opinion, for what it is worth, coming from a consumer that Nikon is mostly likely targeting (D600 owner, photography enthusiast/hobbyist). I will not be upgrading to the D610. I have been anxiously awaiting the announcement of an upgrade to the D600 as I have been less than thrilled with my experience with this camera. Coming from the D7000, I was extremely excited to get my hands on a full frame camera. I regret my move. I feel that the auto-focus on my D7000 was superior to that of the D600, and I was really hoping that would be the improvement to the upgrade to the D600. I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to have that improvement. Besides that, I had an awful experience with Nikon repair to repair my autofocus issue I was having. They fixed the problem, but sent me home with a dirty camera and had to send it back 2 more times to get them to clean it. I realize this has nothing to do with the topic, I just feel as though I'm slipping a little with my loyalty to Nikon, and this doesn't help. Now, I'm considering "downgrading" to the D7100 (although, I feel this would be an upgrade) to get the better autofocus system because I'm not sure I want to keep the D600 for 2 more years.
     
  34. Reminds me of when Triumph solved the oil leak problem in the TT600 by renaming it the TT610.
    Still beats Nikon's solution to the D2H glitch - pretend it didn't happen.
     
  35. I think it would go a long way into re-establishing trust if Nikon would just state that the shutter in the D600 was causing issues and that the D610 has a new shutter that fixes those issues. Wouldn't that leave a better image than the current public relations disaster? Wouldn't Nikon rather look like a company with integrity that stands by its products and admits to problems rather than trying to make believe that they didn't happen?
    A full recall of (a million?) cameras...​
    I strongly doubt that it has been that many - at an estimated 30,000 units per month (for a period of about 13 months), the number is likely less than half of that.
    What I don't understand is the following - if the shutter (design) is causing the issue with oil and debris on the D600 sensor, then why would not EVERY camera be affected? If it isn't the shutter (and rather an issue in the manufacturing process), then why would a new one fix the issue?
    I think the history of issues with their DSLR cameras that Shun listed (incompletely) above just re-confirms that it is generally a good idea to not buy anything right after the release but wait at least six months.
     
  36. Shun, if I come over the pond I can save $900 or $1100 on body only or kit price respectively! That's about a third!
    Forget your $3!
     
  37. Shun, Nikon has a history of being ham-fisted in handling defective products. That's nothing new, and it doesn't justify the current behavior. Even Thom Hogan's been complaining about how Nikon treats its customers for years. The big difference, IMO, between the D70 and the D600 is that the D600 shares its market space with the D7000. The D600's stablemate has been upgraded (D7100), the D600 should have been too. The D610 is seeing firmware updates that the D600 should (but won't) get. It's like the SB-900 all over again.
    Compare this to Fuji, who had a problem with sticky aperture blades on their X100. They will fix the problem for free, outside warranty. In the US, as of January 1, 2013 they will charge labor ($150, but the parts are free). Coincidentally, on January 1 Fuji announced the X100S (roughly two years after the X100 was introduced). Sounds a lot like the D610, right? Well, Fuji actually added improvements not just BS marketing speak. Fuji added things like on-chip PDAF, revised viewfinder, improved menus and focus-by-wire system. Basically, Fuji took a customer friendly approach.
    In contrast, Nikon's just giving its customers the finger and ensuring that there'll be yet another short-lived product. Had they owned up to the oil problems on the D600, announced a recall or some sort of service campaign, and taken another six months (or more) to release a D7100 based FX body I'd be singing another tune. How much do you think an out of warranty D600 shutter or mirror box replacement will cost? My guess is it'll be more than $150.
    P.S. I hadn't noticed any further oil problems after the mirror box was replaced on my D600, but Nikon replaced the shutter anyhow while the camera was in for another manufacturing defect. I can't help but wonder if people who are only getting one or the other (mirror, shutter) are only getting a partial fix and are the ones who stand a higher chance of seeing the problem recur.
     
  38. The D610 comes with an extinguisher....to put out all the negative fires of the D600. Frankly, I'd would be insulted how Nikon has dealt with this (and D800) issues. Shoving head in the sand and saying I see nothing was not the response that I expected from respected firm like Nikon. Naturally, this will follow in sales.
    Unlike most, I don't even use the AF module, but I do like the solid integrity of my D700....and until I see a decent replacement for it.....who knows what company will get my $'s ?
    Les
     
  39. I was hot to go with the D610, until reading all of this.
     
  40. Canon recalled many of their 1D3 and 1DX bodies over autofocus issues.​
    No they didn't.
    The 1DX was subject to an advisory, whereby people affected by a rare and limited problem caused (ironically) by insufficient lubrication in the shutter assembly having the potential to cause particles to be released which might affect AF, were invited to return their cameras for a tweak that addressed the issue.
    Not a "recall over autofocus issues" by any stretch of the imagination.
     
  41. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    What I don't understand is the following - if the shutter (design) is causing the issue with oil and debris on the D600 sensor, then why would not EVERY camera be affected?​
    Dieter, you have answered your own question, as well as Alex's point.
    The D600's shutter problem only affects some samples, not every D600. Unfortunately, I have no statistics on what percentage is in which category, but:
    • Some D600 have gone back for cleaning and repair, sometimes multiple times and requires a shutter replacement.
    • Some D600 require no more than customer self cleaning once in a while, something we do on all DSLR anyway. Some D600 may require cleaning more often than your "average" DSLR, but generally speaking, it is tolerable.
    • Some D600 have no special problems at all.
    So if Nikon announces that the D600's shutter causes problems, there will be panic and all of a sudden, a lot of D600 will go back for repair, regardless of whether that particular unit needs it or not. At least to me, that approach doesn't make any sense; it is a total waste of time and effort.
    Alex, I am sorry that your D600 gives you a lot of problems. If I were you, I would pressure Nikon to give you a replacement; maybe you could get lucky and get a D610 as replacement. However, it is like "If my neighbor loses his job, it is a recession. If I lose my job, it is a depression." I can understand your frustration. But it is not like every single D600 has major problems. If your problem is not resolved, I guess you escalate it.
    Even Thom Hogan's been complaining about how Nikon treats its customers for years.​
    In the last couple of years, Thom Hogan has reached a point that he complains about everything on every company, Nikon or otherwise. I have stopped reading his blog; I don't need all that negativity in my life.
    BTW, Fuji's X100 was in production for 2 years? So it makes sense that it gets a more major upgrade. I don't think Nikon plans to upgrade the D600 every year. The D610 is out there to correct one particular problem and to some degree, it is a PR move on Nikon's part. I pull no punches pointing that out. However, they must have planned this at least 6 months ago, and production must have switched over from the D600 to D610 a while back. In other words, Nikon would be extremely stupid to have a lot of D600 remaining in its inventory. Whether it is a good idea to buy a D600 in its close out sale or not is up to each individual to decide, but in case you want a new one, I would get it fairly quickly. However, at least I have a lot of reservation with refurbished D600.
     
  42. I am very disappointed with Nikon for being so stupid with the way it has announced its "new" D 610. I am a D 600 owner and my camera has just been devalued by its replacement, the D 610. I was not even offered the opportunity by Nikon to replace or trade in my D 600, now perceived by the marketplace to be defective, with its replacement, the D 610. The D 610's new features are really nothing to write home about, and that is another story in itself as many of you have already stated. The DX body Pentax just announced is what Nikon should be announcing. Shame on Nikon on two fronts. It is slipping in its ability to stay abreast of its competition technologically and it again is exhibiting complete disregard for understanding its existing customer base and wanting to treat them fairly.
    Joe Smith
     
  43. Joseph - doesn't that happen with every new product? What about the people buying a D700 just before the D800 came out, or 5D2 just before the 5D3? Nikon can't do anything else because of the Osborne effect. It's not like the D610 wasn't rumoured. My D800E cost me slightly over £3000 when it came out; I just accept that it devalued a lot, and quickly, but it meant I got shots at the Olympics that I would otherwise have missed. Similarly, my D700 arrived in time for me to visit the Grand Canyon. I'd have saved money if I'd got it later, but I'd not have a 30" print from Bright Angel Trail that I quite like.

    I'm a little disappointed that Nikon didn't put the MultiCAM 3500 in there to remove the obvious dichotomy between the D7100 and D600 - there remains a bit of confusion in their product line about which is the "better" camera at that point, though there are also reasons to go with the cheaper of any adjacent pair in Nikon's line-up (except maybe the D3200). I'm sure the policy is that they're trying not to hurt D800 sales, as Shun says (people on this forum clearly say they'll pay a premium for a D800 for the AF module) and that they're only competing with the 6D, which has the same number of AF points as an F6. They're probably happy not to be doing so solely with a price war, if the D610 gives them an excuse to reset. Besides, I quite like the idea of a continuous quiet shutter, especially if (unlike the D800's) it's actually quiet. I'm sure that D700 upgraders would still complain even with a better AF module in the D600 - there's no way to make it D700 build class without increasing the weight (and they were trying to make it light, for one of the same reasons that the 5D2 was popular) and charging more.

    It's a bit "meh", but at least there's no "ooh, be careful" caveat with buying this as there was with the D600 (however rare the actual issues). At least, as far as we know - it's possible something else has slipped past quality control.
     
  44. Andrew, I disagree. No, it does not happen with every product. The real change in the D 610 is a redesign of the shutter mechanism to eliminate the oil contamination of the sensor that plagued the D 600. I do not consider 6 fps vs 5.5 or continuous quiet mode at 3 fps to be anything really different to call it a different camera. That is just minor tweaking.
    I owned a D 700 and a D 300s (and still do) before I bought a D 600. I thought about getting the D800, but settled for the D 600. The D 800 is completely different from a D 700. The D 610 and the D 600 are practically the same camera. Nikon's fiasco with the D 600-D610 is going to make me and many others very cautious before I spend any money on any new Nikon body. Nikon should recall the D 600 now as far as I am concerned. Nikon needs to learn what other smarter corporations have learned when they have quality problems with products--admit it, recall them and get them behind you. In the long run you are way ahead.
    Joe Smith
     
  45. Shun, another option is to do what Canon and Fuji did. Announce a service campaign, fix the affected models, and go to work developing a suitable replacement. Last I heard, people aren't shying away from the X100 or X100s in droves and a year later Canon still hasn't replaced the 1DX. The whole point is that neither of those two companies axed a model after over a year. They acknowledged the faults, fixed them, and moved on. Neither faced widespread panic, presumably neither company suffered massive losses. In fact, the most agitated Fuji users I've seen appear to be those that use their low serial number X100 rarely and only suffered from sticky aperture blades after the introduction of the X100S (so the cameras are > 1 year old). Hardly the doomsday scenario you've predicted. Canon and Fuji have done the proper thing in acknowledging serious problems (in Fuji's case improper assembly much like the D800/D4 focusing problems that have never been formally acknowledged by Nikon).
    Nikon ought to be able to come up with a range of D600 serial numbers with faulty shutter/mirror assemblies, publish it, and fix them. I'm sure that not every D600 has been afflicted with the oil spattering... in fact on DPreview the loudest noise seems to come from people who are finding spots (dust or oil, unsure) at ƒ/30.
    With regards to the oil issue on my D600, please note that, as far as I can tell, Nikon fixed the problem the first time around with a replacement mirror assembly. I don't know why they replaced the shutter as the camera was in for unrelated problems and I hadn't seen any persistent spots with my 20/4 AI at ƒ/11. The other issues are, as far as I can tell, due to sloppy assembly and (with any luck) user error. If I have further issues that aren't self-inflicted, I'll escalate it with American Express.
    The Thom Hogan article I was referencing was originally dated October 18, 2004, so it was written well before his trend towards KR style writing.
     
  46. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Nikon ought to be able to come up with a range of D600 serial numbers with faulty shutter/mirror assemblies, publish it, and fix them.​
    Alex, there is no such thing. I had one of the earliest D600 as a test sample. I used it for a month and half and never noticed any dust problem until I read Roger Cicala's article. And even so, I had to set the aperture to f22 to see any problem (minor to moderate) on that particular camera.
    For example, perhaps for those who use their cameras in a dusty environment, their D600 would be more prone to the dust issue. For those who typically use theirs in a clean environment, there is no particular issue.
    Nikon did issue a D600 service advisory back in February, 2013: https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18180
    It is not like Nikon never acknowledges this issue. I think it is a reasonable approach to let those who have problems to send their D600 in for cleaning or repair. If they refuse/unable to repair your camera properly, especially after a few tries, by all means escalate it. You can always write to Nikon's president if you need to go that far.
    Blindly recalling a bunch of cameras, many of which are in perfect working condition, is silly.
     
  47. The good news about releasing a D610 as opposed to "silently fixing" the D600 is that, on the used market, you know that a D610 shouldn't have the same issue. Nikon presumably feel that for PR reasons they needed to do the same for the new market, even if this apparently hasn't done retailers any favours. Hopefully, on the used market, educated buyers would know that a D600 and D610 are almost identical so long as the "are there any shutter issues?" question has been asked. Uneducated buyers are another matter, but hopefully many would be so uneducated that they wouldn't know about the issue in the first place. If Nikon feel the D600 was a PR problem, I understand the need to separate themselves from it, and it's hard to criticise them for this. I have to assume that Nikon don't know which cameras might have an issue (not least because the consumer may have correctly removed all the oil by their own cleaning and not need a service), and that recalling a big batch isn't an option.

    I was a bit wary of bringing up the D800, because it is so different from the D700. Still, I suspect the majority of people who wanted "a Nikon FX camera" and jumped on a D700 just before the D800 announcement might have done a double-take. The D800 can only match the D700's 5fps if you crop it to 24MP, and can't match the 8fps performance with the grip. Otherwise, there's very little the D700 does that the D800 doesn't do better (speaking as someone who owns both and who expected still to be using my D700 far more than I actually am - though I may change my mind while my D800 is off for a clean). For anyone wanting resolution and choosing between the D700 and 5D2, I'd find the D800 a bit of an eye-opener. There are some who would justifiably still prefer a D700 (especially on price), but new cameras obsoleting old ones is a fact of life.

    A better comparison would have been between the 5D2 and the 5D3: the 5D3 does everything the 5D2 can do and almost everything the D700 can do, and most of it somewhat better. A 5D2 shopper buying on the last day before the 5D3 announcement would really get stung. It happens. But this was the wrong forum for that comparison. :) (Okay, maybe I should talk about amateur D3 owners when the D700 was launched, or D3 owners when the D3s was launched.)

    Honestly, the D600 is a high-end consumer camera. I'm not surprised it got a respin, because I'd expect it to be on a shorter cycle than the pro models. I'm only surprised that it didn't change more. The extra half fps does give it parity with the 5D3, and I have to think that if they'd put a 51-point AF module in there for a small premium, they may have stolen some more Canon sales; maybe for a D620. But I've no idea how well any of the FX cameras are actually selling - if Nikon's issue is offloading the D600s that are already on shelves with retailers, the D610 is obviously not going to help.
     
  48. I think that this was a good move for Nikon. The noise about dust or oil on the sensor of the D600 surely was affecting sales, especially in competition with the Canon 6D.
    Now those who want to buy a FF camera for the first time, but who are not sure whether they want to choose Nikon over Canon, can proceed with confidence, free of nagging doubts about dust or oil on the sensor.
    I read a lot of complaints above about Nikon products. I bought the D800E new almost a year ago and a D3s with less than 40k shutter actuations back in July of this year, and I love them both. They are different cameras with different strengths. I also bought the D7000 used over a year ago--along with several Nikon lenses over the last year, many used through eBay, but one or two new ones.
    So, I am one who now feels that he has the basis for an honest comparison between Nikon and Canon: they are both great.
    I've had absolutely no problems with ANY of my Nikon gear.
    I was the one who posted the original thread about the D600 dust issue that Shun mentioned at the outset, and so I am no fan boy. Now I can say without reservation that I loved Canon (which I shot from 1982 to 2012), but I love Nikon at least as much.
    Nikon: Buy with confidence. I think that the same is true for Canon, but the point here is that the dust issue about the "other"great Nikon FF camera from 2012 is now dead, dead, dead.
    That said, Nikon should in the future be more direct in addressing persistent rumors and remedying their cause. Failure to do so hurt sales in the case of the D600, and it will do so again if Nikon tries to ignore an issue in the future.
    --Lannie
     
  49. Gosh, those sparkly engineers have managed to re-invent a shutter that's been in every Full Frame camera since they started and doesn't spray crap every time it actuates....6FPS isn't that great. What was wrong with the D700 shutter mechanism??
    I wonder how much the Quiet mode is actually shutter design related as-opposed-to firmware and hardware timing?
    The D600 shutter should have NEVER been a weakness....I'm curious how it ever got into production?
     
  50. Shun, at some point Nikon came up with an updated shutter assembly (and likely a redesigned mirror assembly). Either recall those with the old style assemblies, or announce that (potentially) affected users should send their cameras in. Canon did it. Fuji did it. It's not rocket science. For any giver recall of any sort of product, surely not every user in an affected range is going to have the problem in question. That's life. If Nikon can't pinpoint when they started using less oily bits, they've got bigger problems.
    For reference here's what Canon posted regarding the 1D3:
    http://usa.canon.com/cusa/professio...geKeyCode=prdAdvDetail&docId=0901e0248004cd3d
    Here's the link for the 1DX/1DC:
    http://www.canon-europe.com/Support...aspx?faqtcmuri=tcm:13-1064308&page=1&type=faq
    Compare that to what Nikon posted. In fact, Nikon does not acknowledge the oil issue at all. Neither oil, nor shutter, nor mirror are mentioned on that page. Merely: you, the user are using the camera wrong. That's disrespectful at best, certainly disingenuous and/or incompetent, and fraud at worst. While the D600 is very much an entry-level camera, it's certainly not cheap enough to be considered a disposable camera.
    Canon says (1D3):
    After a thorough investigation, we have found that some EOS-1D Mark III cameras may have an issue with the mirror mechanism, which is part of the autofocus optical system. This issue may cause inconsistent focusing accuracy or inconsistent focus tracking with moving subjects when using AI-Servo AF and continuous shooting modes, particularly in high temperatures.
    ...
    We are aware that some customers have raised questions about the performance of the EOS-1D Mark III AF system under certain conditions. We will continue to investigate, and look for opportunities to improve, the performance of the AF system to ensure the satisfaction of all of our customers​
    Canon says (1DX):
    Due to inconsistency in the amount of lubrication which has been applied to the driving mechanism, we have identified a phenomenon in which a small number of the affected products listed below, may over time, develop the following symptoms:
    1. AF searches but does not lock in on the subject.
      (Caused by minute particles produced by wear due to the inconsistent lubrication mentioned above)
    2. The image shown in the viewfinder is “blurry” or “not steady”.
      (Occurs if wear progresses)
    If you own one of the potentially affected cameras, you are kindly requested to contact one of our authorised service facilities to arrange a free repair.
    ...
    We offer our sincere apologies to customers who have been inconvenienced by this issue. Canon strives to provide the highest quality products to our customers, and we spare no effort in our quality management to make sure our customers use our products with confidence.​
    Nikon says:
    Some D600 users have reported the appearance of random spots on their images which is generally attributed to the natural accumulation of dust. While understanding that dust will occur over time, and steps may be taken to reduce the occurrence, the complete elimination of these dust spots may sometimes be difficult.

    It has come to our attention that, in some rare cases, they may be reflected noticeably in images and removal may be difficult using normal measures. Therefore, Nikon is informing users of a service to reduce this issue.
    ...
    As a first step, please follow the guidance from the D600 User's Manual (pages 301-305) related to the Clean Image Sensor function and manual cleaning using a blower bulb.​
    Nothing's certain, but Canon was able to identify a range of cameras where the problems are known (but not guaranteed) to exist and proactively dealt with it. Nikon just told its customers to sit and spin... repeatedly. My point is that problems in complex products aren't uncommon, yet not all companies treat their customers the way Nikon does. It's possible to do better, and Nikon ought to do better. Period.
     
  51. Nevermind, Alex already covered what I wrote.
     
  52. Who says the D610 shutter is oil spatter free?
    Surely it's gone through the same testing as the D600's shutter....:)?
     
  53. The D600 shutter should have NEVER been a weakness....I'm curious how it ever got into production?​
    Indeed - why isn't the same mirror box and shutter used in every FX camera? OK, I see that the D4 may need something beefier - but for the rest, "one size fits all" seems certainly more cost effective.
    IIRC, then the Canon 1D3 issue wasn't one that Canon reacted on quickly - it took quite some doing by Rob Galbraith to get them to acknowledge it.
     
  54. Who says the D610 shutter is oil spatter free?
    Surely it's gone through the same testing as the D600's shutter....:)?​
    Mike, I have a hunch that this new shutter mechanism has probably been tested more than any in the history of any camera. Nikon absolutely had to get it right this time--and they knew it.
    --Lannie
     
  55. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Alex Zepeda, no offense, since I am not a Nikon employee, I can speak freely and have no concerns about offending their customers: If you are so unhappy with what Nikon does but everything Canon does seems right to you, why don't you switch brands to Canon?
    I do recall that when the 1D3 was current a few years ago, there were a lot of debates about its AF problems, on this site and on other sites. I remember that one thread (outside of photo.net, I think it was NatureScape) had some 1700+ posts. Needless to say, there were a lot of arguments and counter-arguments on whether there was any problem at all. For example, Jeff Spirer, a Canon user here, still denies that was any AF problem on the 1D3 to begin with.
    I kind of doubt that the dust/oil issue is not resolved on the D610. However, I was fairly surprised that the D800 (maybe roughly 20% of them??) had this left AF issue, on an AF module that has been in used since the 2007 D3 and D300. Of course, naturally, the two I used had zero problems. And the D600's problems seem to come from nowhere. Who knows whether people will discover any new issues on the D610.
    We'll see when the D610 becomes available.
     
  56. Yeah, you can bet the D610 shutter will be oil free. So much so, we'll probably be reading about D610 shutter failures due to lack of lubricant in the not too
    distant future.
     
  57. Shun the easy answer is: now that Nikon's deliberately tanked D600 resale value I'm not willing to take that kind of loss and switch systems. My D600 works well enough for me now, but I'm fearful of any future problems.
    The more nuanced answer is that you're simply inferring things incorrectly. From my last post:
    My point is that problems in complex products aren't uncommon, yet not all companies treat their customers the way Nikon does. It's possible to do better, and Nikon ought to do better. Period.​
    So not only am I acknowledging that the competition isn't perfect, I'm not singling out Canon. Fuji behaved in a similarly responsive way. And, you know what? So did Pentax. Yes, it takes a lot of teeth gnashing but eventually Canon, Fuji, and Pentax all managed to fall on their sword while Nikon continues to blame its customers. Here's what Pentax said about the same oil problems on their K-5:

    http://support.pentaximaging.com/node/1214
    We would like to express our heartfelt appreciation for your patronage of PENTAX products.

    We deeply regret that the first shipment of our PENTAX K-5 digital SLR camera included some products with a stained image sensor — a problem which we believe was caused during manufacturing — causing them to occasionally produce images with spots which look something like water drops, and which users cannot remove with ordinary cleaning methods.

    We sincerely apologize for any trouble and inconvenience this problem may have caused. We also promise to do all we can to achieve the highest level of quality control in the future, and eliminate any worries our customers might have about our products. We sincerely appreciate your kind understanding and cooperation regarding this issue.

    Please Note: All users of these defective products will receive free repair at our service center. To request a free UPS shipping label to use when sending your camera into our shop, please call our Customer Service Department at 1 800 877-0155 (for customers in the U.S. only).​
    I went with the D600 because it was announced right before a trip, and I was excited to use my lenses with a full-frame field of view. I'm definitely eyeing Fuji's X system offerings, but I wasn't ready to divest my Nikon mount gear. I'm not happy with some of the compromises that Nikon's made in an effort to avoid cannibalizing their own products, but it functions well enough most of the time. The Sony sensor is nothing short of fantastic, and the rest of the camera is generally good enough.

    What I'm not happy about is how Nikon treats its customers. My hope is that Nikon will see enough pressure over this (and other issues) to reverse course. Maybe it takes more pressure than the competition, who knows. In the end though, with Nikon's aggressive vendor lock-in (XQD, DRM'd batteries, artificially depressed resale value, restricted parts access, proprietary RAW files and lens protocols, etc) they're reaping what they sow: an unhappy customer left with expensive alternatives.
     
  58. Fascinating Nikon. New shutter and a new model number. Some 'frames per second'. Good discussion about it all, but I doubt if it will change the stock numbers. Last January11th, Nikon was at 30.7 ... closed today at 17.22. Not bad if you have 8-10k invested ... now worth 4.5 t0 7.5k.... but hell, we've got a new shutter with no 'problems'. Maybe worth it. Loss seems small in comparison, eh? But, now if you serve on the board of a corporation or pension fund with, say, just short of 700million invested, and have the fiduciary responsibility to the Company, the Shareholders, and even, the Pension Fund ... you are likely less jovial about the increase in frames per second of the new D610. This product is a Nikon answer. It's Nikon Management. It's Nikon attitude. It's Nikon, thru and thru. Too bad.
     
  59. I'm going to see if I can track down an NOS D700 at the end of the month. I might have some luck if I go into Shanghai. My feeling is that, given the IQ rating on DXO is the same as that of the sensor on the D7000, it is worth the upgrade to get a truly professional body, which is actually made right. Increased functionality, robustness of build, AF module, internal AF motor, shutter speed and hi ISO noise will keep me happy for a while.
    I can live with the 12MP from a body of such quality- one could argue it will help me discipline my framing. I am not willing to live with the feeling that I've spent 12,000 yuan on a fix for a botched job D600 which still has an unsatisfactory AF module, or been forced to by a D7100 because there's no replacement for the 300s.
     
  60. The fact that Nikon USA calls D610 a successor to the D600 is kind of a joke. We ALL know why the D610 came out. I sympathize the owners of the D600 and I share their "anger" because of the devaluation within a year of the release of D600 original model.
    Also I am thinking all of those who will buy the D610, and about a year from now, they will see the real successor of the D600 in the market with a better AF system and EXPEED 4. Will they be complaining regarding the short life of their D610 and the devaluation? Well they should not...
    For me the whole story with the entry FX models of both Nikon and Canon was a big question mark. I really never understood why someone would invest in a "cheap" and "crippled" FX camera (a system that uses very expensive lenses as well). But I guess it was, and still is, the FX syndrome...Cheers!
     
  61. What was wrong with the D700 shutter mechanism?​
    The D700's one is rated to 150,000 exposures (unlike the D3's or D800's, but like the D600's). There's no quiet mode on the D700, and the D600's quiet mode is allegedly actually quiet, unlike the D800's. The D700 shutter can only do 5 fps without an external grip providing some extra power (I'm assuming that's not an artificial restriction). Nikon have been changing the mechanism, for better or worse. Still, I believe the problem with the D600 is likely less to do with the concept than with the manufacturing process, but that's a guess.
    I'm going to see if I can track down an NOS D700 at the end of the month. I might have some luck if I go into Shanghai. My feeling is that, given the IQ rating on DXO is the same as that of the sensor on the D7000, it is worth the upgrade to get a truly professional body, which is actually made right. Increased functionality, robustness of build, AF module, internal AF motor, shutter speed and hi ISO noise will keep me happy for a while.​
    At high ISO, I'd say the D700 has a slight edge over a D7000. It's about a stop behind the D800 and D600. At low ISO, it has much worse dynamic range, unlike the D600/D800. It's slower than a D600, has longer mirror black-out (I believe), only has one card slot, weighs more, has no quiet mode and doesn't shoot video. I love my D700, and I plan to renew my relationship with it while my D800 is being cleaned, but there's no doubt that it's old technology. If you want what you're getting, good, but don't use rose-tinted lenses to look at it.
    The fact that Nikon USA calls D610 a successor to the D600 is kind of a joke.​
    That seems unreasonable. You'd prefer them to sell them alongside each other? The D610 is a replacement for the D600 (I'm sure); is it an "upgrade"? Well, a bit. Porsche seem to do okay out of releasing tiny updates every year.

    Actually, it's a refreshing change. For the last few generations, Nikon have produced a lot of "replacement" cameras that have had people up in arms because they're a downgrade in some area. D3->D3s (low ISO dynamic range). D700->D800 (not fast enough). D700->D600 (AF not good enough, etc.) D7000->D7100 (buffer not big enough). Canon kept people very quiet with the 5D3 because it was, at least, not worse than the 5D2 in any area. The D610 is at least definitively not worse than the D600 in any way (that we've found yet).
    I really never understood why someone would invest in a "cheap" and "crippled" FX camera.​
    Yes, for a long time my response to "we want a cheap FX body" was "it's not going to happen, because people won't be happy paying for an FX sensor and getting consumer handling and autofocus". To my surprise, Nikon released one anyway, and people complained about the consumer handling and autofocus. (I've not been following the 6D, but my feeling is that - to everyone not invested in shooting public lavatories - it's much more crippled relative to its big brother than the D600 is relative to the D800 - I'm surprised it's as capable as it was.) I'm grateful that I don't have to pay D4 money to get a D800, and I'm happy for the people who really want a D600/D610 that they're as cheap as they are, but it does seem like an odd compromise. Not that it should have resulted in oil on the sensor.
    Also I am thinking all of those who will buy the D610, and about a year from now, they will see the real successor of the D600 in the market with a better AF system and EXPEED 4.​
    I'd be astonished if there wasn't a 51-point AF system in a D620 (or possibly D650; something I'm going to confuse with an early Canon, anyway) in the next couple of years. I'm also expecting a D4 refresh, because the 1Dx seems to have the headline features and Nikon aren't winning the "better AF system" race at the moment. Whether they do it with on-sensor phase detect is another matter. I'm not sure what this means for the D800, but frankly the D800 is not really designed for sports shooting anyway - or wouldn't be if a D600 variant had a decent AF module to replace it. (Speaking of which, does everyone remember when we liked the D7000's AF module? Okay, admittedly it was a bit less puny on a DX sensor.) Since an upgrade is not going to stop me enjoying shooting with my D800, I'm not currently planning to worry about it. And, obviously, Nikon have been known to astonish me before.

    Anyone deciding to wait for a D620 will get a better camera than the D610. The question is how many shots they'll miss while waiting. Cameras depreciate; it is known. If you want different behaviour, by a used Leica.

    When we've stopped complaining about oil, how long do you think it'll be before people want a cheaper full-frame camera? (I've seen a couple of these threads already.) Maybe there's a good reason for Nikon to do it, if they believe they can sell some expensive FX glass. Time to roll out the F75 molds gain, perhaps.

    While there were plenty of rumours about the D610, and I'm not holding my breath on a D300s successor at least until a D4 refresh, what really surprises me is that Nikon didn't refresh the D3200 (not that there's anything wrong with it). This might suggest that Nikon have realised they can't shift some of the cameras that are already on shelves... or it might be coincidence. Obviously a D7100 refresh with a bigger buffer ought to be on the cards, but I'll give them time to stew on that and hope they do a D3-style optional upgrade for existing owners. Now, if Nikon respond to the 100D, I'll be more interested, especially if they use my idea of collapsing the lens mount into the camera for storage (not likely, but it would be pleasing). Fun times.
     
  62. I've just had a look at Thom's summary of the initial responses to the D610. I take it back: Nikon have devalued the D600. Not for any justifiable reason (most D600s are probably fine, I'd buy one with impunity, the D610 is barely an improvement) but because Nikon have cunningly made a load of media sources which weren't currently talking about the oil spot issue bring it up again. Hopefully it'll be a short-term thing until it all blows over again.

    The good news is that it's not like there's much reason to sell your devalued D600 in order to get a D610. (If you got a D600 en route to a D800, well, it was going to devalue somewhat anyway.) Hang on and wait for it all to blow over, and hopefully things will settle. It doubt it will have done more damage than if you bought a D600 at launch and then watched the price tank during the pricing war against the 6D. If you were about to sell anyway, though, you have my sympathy. At least your D600 hasn't actually got worse in the meantime; it's still a perfectly good camera. If you're a retailer with a load of them on the shelves, though, I can understand why you'd not be very happy. I hope Nikon gave you some time to plan - but what I hear about the stock levels suggests that Nikon hasn't been all that good about letting retailers get rid of the old stuff before releasing the new. As a consumer, I'm very grateful to have got my V1 as cheaply as I did; as a retailer, I'm not surprised so many camera stores are struggling.
     
  63. Thanks for the skinny on the D700's shortcomings.
    Maybe I should get the Leica 25/1.4 for my GX1 and leave off buying Nikon only if the body I want actually ever comes out.
     
  64. "In the last couple of years, Thom Hogan has reached a point that he complains about everything on every company, Nikon or otherwise. I have stopped reading his blog; I don't need all that negativity in my life."
    Any chance Hogan just might possibly be onto something? His D610 coverage discussed the problems the D600/D610 transition is creating for Nikon dealers--the people at the sharp end of the companies' "issues." It's a slant I've not seen elsewhere. It's not a small problem.
     
  65. Will you guys never be happy? You wanted cheap FX and Nikon have you the D600. You wanted a way to ID a D600 with
    a new shutter and Nikon gave you the D610. Now you're complaining because your D600s - which apparently are
    working fine - are worth less were you to sell them used than they would have been if Nikon hadn't come out with a new
    model?

    That happens all the time. Ken R even wrote an article about it (google "digital rot"). If you want to avoid this sort of thing,
    never buy new electronics, because the only device that's worth as much when you sell it as it was when you bought it is
    an iPhone and that's only because of the artificial conditions that subsidized phones and two year contracts create. That
    ad some lenses you can't get anymore. Your TV, your computer, your car and your computer lose value and there's
    always a newer model being introduced.

    Really, this camera is a D600 with a new shutter. That's all it's meant to be. Not a full version upgrade, just a 0.1. It's so
    you can buy a D600 without worrying about sensor spots.
     
  66. Maybe some people see that their camera isn't worth much now with the D610 annoucement.
    I keep my gear until it dies. My D70 still using it, just got the D600 3-4 months ago intend to keep it for 10yrs. But the more and more I think of it, after 10yrs it was maybe due to an upgrade but I could have delayed it for 3-5yrs and got used. Perhaps $900 ... FX. Needa get that 120 format film camera, have the film already when they canned the E100G wished I got a bit more of that stuff. Well going by history the 24-70 nano lens should be due for an upgrade soon surely within 3 or 5yrs too or even the D5 and so it carries on with its cycle.
     
  67. "Any chance Hogan just might possibly be onto something?"
    Not 'round these parts. Canon, er, the orthodox position on that is a firm no. That said, I'm getting the strong impression that "Being Nikon means never having to say you're sorry." Or that's how too many decision makers (or a few insular but powerful jackasses) at Nikon view the world. Despite having no dog in the D600 fight (I don't own or want one), I am unimpressed by Nikon's handling of the associated problems.
    The strong implication of "There is no systematic problem with the D600 shutter: all oil spot problems are one-off flukes or user failure to maintain sensor hygiene" in spite of reasonable evidence to the contrary is bad enough. Combine that with "Here is a new model that is essentially the D600 again, not that we're admitting anything was ever wrong with the D600" is kind of insulting. If there is truly no systematic D600 problem then stick to your guns and wait until the truly upgraded next iteration is ready. If there is a problem, albeit in a very small minority of all the D600's out there, then admit it and offer a solution to remedy the problem. Refusing to admit to the possibility of a real problem, then trotting out a quick fix to that officially nonexistent problem is the worst of possible responses.
     
  68. Shun - I'd very seriously consider switching from Nikon to Canon for my next camera BUT like most others, I have a lot of money invested in lenses and accessories and I simply could not afford to change brands just like that.
     
  69. "Shun - I'd very seriously consider switching from Nikon to Canon for my next camera BUT like most others, I have a lot of money invested in lenses and accessories and I simply could not afford to change brands just like that."​


    why switch? Use both. Get the best out of the two system. I did it. My life is at peace.
     
  70. Nikon users should be pleased to have a 24 MP full frame camera with 6 fps capability available to them for under $2000 USD, regardless of the focus system.
    I have had both a Canon DSLR and Nikon DSLR in the past, and I could see myself doing it again, but it is not ideal, and it could get expensive.
     
  71. Having two systems of cameras is problematic if you travel with your gear and photograph a variety of subjects. If you have lenses and cameras that only fit each other in certain combinations, then if one body fails, you lose access to some lenses with it. I think most would agree that carrying two Canon camera bodies and two Nikons to account for this possibility of failure is excessive.
    Boy, is there a tempest in a teacup on this topic.
     
  72. That seems unreasonable. You'd prefer them to sell them alongside each other? The D610 is a replacement for the D600 (I'm sure); is it an "upgrade"? Well, a bit. Porsche seem to do okay out of releasing tiny updates every year.​
    It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. And I don't consider the 610 as a replacement to the D600. The D610 is the model that the D600 should have been in the first place, if it was operating correctly. If people are happy with their D600 and 6D good for them. It's their money, their call...but don't tell me that Nikon released the D610 as an "upgrade" and a successor to the D600 since I am old enough to understand when someone is playing games with the consumers plus a Marketing person that has worked for many multinational companies. So I know how they work...Have a nice day!
     
  73. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Shun - I'd very seriously consider switching from Nikon to Canon for my next camera BUT like most others, I have a lot of money invested in lenses and accessories and I simply could not afford to change brands just like that.​
    Chris, for someone who is really unhappy with Nikon, and I think Alex Zepeda clearly falls into that category, you definitely should switch to another brand, and unless you go mirrorless, IMO Canon is really the only logical option. Of course that may involve selling a bunch of lenses, etc. But in these days with eBay, Craig's List, etc., it is much easier than it was 15, 20 years ago.
    If you choose not to switch, you only have yourself to blame for any further dissatisfaction.
    However, I am sure you find that "the other side" has its share of problems. You will realize it when you get there.
    Boy, is there a tempest in a teacup on this topic.​
    That seems to be what these web forums, inside and outside of photo.net, all about. :)

    Clearly there are "lemon" D600 units, but plenty of them are working just fine or at most with minor dust issues. IMO part of the reason Nikon is moving to a D610 is to clear all the exaggerations and negativity that are now attached to the D600 from various web discussions. Naturally, some people think it is a great move and some don't.
    I am actually surprised that so far, there doesn't seem to be any major problems attached to the D7100 yet. I have used two of them extensively and both are perfect. Let's see whether the D610 can steer clear from any major issues.
     
  74. I bought a refurbished D600 for $1599.00 with one year warranty. The camera had 7 shots on it and at 4500 shots started getting dust. The dust could not be blown out so most likely stuck to oil type film. I wet cleaned and all is good so far. Personally, I love the camera. I am a little upset that it is pretty much worthless now but why should I care, I will have it to the end anyway. While everyone was whining about it I was getting great photos, and will continue to. I am not upset at all about the way Nikon handled this. However, Nikon has upset me greatly in there decision to stop selling parts.
     
  75. Derek, I think "worthless" is an exaggeration. You paid $1600. If you listed it on eBay as, say, "Nikon D600 body, excellent
    condition with clean sensor" I'm sure you'd net at least $1400. You'd have spent $200 to have a good camera you got
    more than 4500 shots from.

    For anybody who knows how to wet-clean a sensor, a D600 would be an amazing deal right now.
     
  76. If you choose not to switch, you only have yourself to blame for any further dissatisfaction.
    However, I am sure you find that "the other side" has its share of problems. You will realize it when you get there.​
    Shun -- so rather than have Nikon bring its customer treatment up to par, I should switch to Canon? My impression is that you're selectively acknowledging what I've written, especially the bits where I repeatedly acknowledge problems with competitors' products. That's almost as bad as your willingness to only post good reviews of Nikon gear on Photo.net. You may not formally work for Nikon, but your criticism is nonetheless a bit disingenuous.
    When the 18-300mm DX came out last year, Nikon asked me whether I wanted to review it. I told them directly that such as super zoom would unlikely to be great. I would be happy to review it as long as they don't mind me pointing it out that it is, at best, a mediocre lens. We eventually decided that it is best that I don't review that lens.​
    The Thom Hogan nine-year-old piece skewering Nikon's service is here: http://www.bythom.com/repair.htm, and IMO, he says it best when he says "A bit of an aside, as this article is about process, not function: the camera came back fixed". Nikon fixed my camera, and I'm sure that they've fixed many D600s. The process leaves a lot to be desired, however.

    Aside from the obvious financial functional motives (it works, for now), I haven't seriously considered switching since buying the D600 because I'd much rather keep the camera and lenses and see Nikon bring themselves up to the customer service bar set by Canon, Fuji, Pentax, and Tamron. Lest you think I'm being shrill, people are already complaining about oil on the D610 sensor. The image in question is here: http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d610/img/sample01/img_01_l.jpg (before assumptions are made: no, I don't see any spots in that picture).
     
  77. Hi All,
    I would like to buy a Refurbished D600 from B&H or Ardorama but they both say I should contact Nikon.Shun, do you have any information on this matter?
    Thanks
    Barry
     
  78. Stop being ridiculous. That image doesn't have any sensor spots and that dpreview article does not claim that the D610
    has sensor spots.

    Barry, the D600 refurb is on the Adorama web site. Just search it for Nikon D600.
     
  79. On a positive note, i've never had an issue with my d3s' shutter.
     
  80. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Alex, you are making this debate personal. May I suggest you give it a rest?
    Lest you think I'm being shrill, people are already complaining about oil on the D610 sensor. The image in question is here: http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d610/img/sample01/img_01_l.jpg (before assumptions are made: no, I don't see any spots in that picture).​
    Nikon has just announced the D610. The camera stores don't have them yet. Nobody outside of Nikon has any production D610 to check for sensor spots or anything else. Please don't bring such sensational nonsense to this forum.
    Even though one image indeed had some spots, it does not mean a whole series of cameras have problems; people can only draw such conclusions after using those camera for a few weeks and get confirmation from multiple samples, as Roget Cicala did last year. At this point, there are simply no production D610 that has been in use for several weeks.
    I would like to buy a Refurbished D600 from B&H or Ardorama but they both say I should contact Nikon.Shun, do you have any information on this matter?​
    As I have pointed out several times, I have very bad experience with refurbished Nikon lenses: Refurbished Nikon 80-400mm AF-S VR from Adorama
    It is by no means a large sample, but three out of three I have used, i.e. 100%, had to be returned. One refurb 70-300 has a completely non-functional focus mechanism (AF or MF), and it rattled when I shoke it, suggesting some loose screw inside. That defective lens should have never left the repair facility. I'll provide a follow up after I get my refund on the refurb 80-400.
    Personally, I don't have much confidence with Nikon USA's refurb process. Even though, hypothetically, for example, only 5% of D600 have issues, it is likely that a lot of those are now refurbs. If you buy those, your chance of having problems that have not been properly refurbished is rather high. However, as long as you don't mind checking it thoroughly and return it if necessary, as I did with the 80-400, it is your chance to take.
    Buying a remaining new D600 from a random pool is much safer, IMO, but you still need to test it thoroughly.
     
  81. hypothetically, for example, only 5% of D600 have issues, it is likely that a lot of those are now refurbs. If you buy those, your chance of having problems that have not been properly refurbished is rather high.
    Buying a remaining new D600 from a random pool is much safer, IMO, but you still need to test it thoroughly.​
    curious remark. i would think the opposite was true with the d600 since we're talking about a known issue. if nikon had an issue not just with new d600s but also with refurbs, then Alex Z. would probably be right about the company not caring about its customer base at all. but if that were the case, wouldnt we have heard about it? most reports here on P-Net of buying refurb bodies have been positive, IIRC. if all the d600 refurbs were bad batch models that hadn't been fixed, wouldnt that pretty much kill the refurb market? and wouldnt Thom Hogan and other sites have reported that widely as well?
    This maybe isnt the best time to be a Nikonista, but all we can ask for is that the company learns its lessons in the future. i kind of agree with alex that if you compare the X100/X100s situation to how nikon has rolled out the d600/d600s, you see there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it.
     
  82. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Eric, it should be clear that my opinion is highly biased by my recent and repeated bad experience with lenses that have been refurbished by Nikon USA. However, just about every single new Nikon lens I have bought in the last 36 years, and there must be over 40 of them, is essentially perfect. The only time I had to take a new lens in for warranty repair (within the first year) was a 35-70mm/f2.8 AF zoom, due to a minor issue on its push/pull zoom mechanism, and that was back in 1990.
    Other than that one 70-300 refurb that is completely non functional, the other two have very subtle sharpness issues at their maximum focal lengths, and it look me hours of careful checking before I was able to conclude that the lens was not acceptable. For example, the recent 80-400 was fine at 400mm, f8 and also 80mm. It is only at 400mm, f5.6 with high-contrst lighting that the problem becomes obvious. Of course once you know that, you can keep reproducing the problem. In other words, if someone else had bought that same lens, I would say perhaps 7, 8 people out of 10 would never notice any problems.
    As I pointed out earlier, the D600/D610 scenario is exactly the same as the D70/D70S back in 2004/2005. If Thom Hogan has indeed been complaining about Nikon's services since 2004, and most likely way before that, Nikon has been using essentially the same approach for a decade. If that approach doesn't work, lots of people would have switched to other brands and Nikon would have gone out of business a long time ago. In reality, even in a poor global economy, Nikon is still doing fairly well. Not that Nikon is doing everything perfectly, far from it, but they must be doing something right.
    However, I have no experience with refurb DSLR bodies. Maybe they are just fine or maybe people are not picking up the issues. Logically, you would like to think that Nikon is not shipping out a lot of poorly refurbished products (or for that matter new products) because they would just keep on getting returns (which is what I have done 3 out of 3 times) and lose lots of money. Maybe those who have bought refurbished D600 recently can comment.
     
  83. My first refurbished D600 was a mess. It only had 2,000 shots on it but the sensor was covered in dust and oil, as it could not be blown out. I did not return due to dust and oil, I returned it because the viewfinder display was half lit. The right side was completely out so you could not see anything on the + exposure, ISO or number of shots. I can fix a dirty sensor and at one time I could have fixed the display. However, Nikon does not sell parts anymore. How Nikon even let that camera out is beyond me, real pathetic.
    My second unit has been perfect. Like I said earlier, it started with dust and oil at 4500 shots. I guess most people would have sent it back, I chose to clean myself. I normally deal with B&H but Cameta Camera has a 1 year warranty with refurbished units. Cameta was as good as B&H, real nice folks, especially on the returned unit.
    I am glad I read Shun's remarks on the refurbished lenses as I was considering getting a 24-70mm. It seems as though Nikon is in desperate need for good help, maybe I should fill out an application.
     
  84. The more I've been thinking about it, the more I see this D610 as a litmus test for Nikon. A large part of my thinking is, this body will have the most stringent Q.C. run in Nikon's history! From that perspective, despite the sly way this has been handled, it might make sense to grab a D610 as soon as the first few user opinions are in. If they mess this one up, I think many people will consider them to have "done a Louis Vuitton"- once one of the most respected names in leather goods, now a con.
    As to the D800 left-focus problem. I simply cannot understand why it would happen in the first place and what possible internal reasoning Nikon has used to show such disrespect for customers prepared to invest in a camera of this quality, with all the lenses and accessories to go with it. Let's face it, once you've made the leap to a D800, you're into photography for the long haul. I was taking shots of my friend's motorbike the other day, with my lowly D5100 and I gave it to him to see which shots he preferred. He held the camera like it was a nuclear bomb, so unused to DSLRs was he. With MFT satisfying many of those who would previously have bought an affordable Canon or Nikon, smartphone cameras getting better all the time and printing almost becoming an archaic practice, it is now more than ever, vitally important that the leap to a Nikon DSLR be seen as justifiable not only due to Image Quality (something which is in fact becoming less and less relevant in this new "Web Era") but in Absolute Quality also.
    Nikon simply must get this right. How many of us have had total beginners asking us what a good DSLR is? And how many will say "Nikon used to be good, but now I'd buy a....." if they continue to charge these prices for sub-standard workmanship?
     
  85. Shun, 5% seems a little low. The two units I had both had the dirty sensor. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind cleaning a sensor. Personally, I believe the number is 100%. Many users, like myself, will clean themselves. Casual photographers may not even have 4000 shots yet. Others may not notice it. The rest have been complaining since the release date.
    From what I have read the problem goes away between 6,000-8,000 shots. From that point on the dust can be blown out. That sounds great to me. I am just hoping that if it is the shutter it will still live up to its 150,000 shot lifespan
     
  86. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Derek, I have no access to any reliable statistics. 5% was merely a random number I chose to use; I hope that is clear all along.
    For whomever may be interested, this is a discussion from 2005 about the differences between the D70 and D70S: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00Bvcu
    The D70S has:
    1. A slightly larger LCD on the back.
    2. Can use a cable release.
    3. The pop-up flash has a slight wider coverage.
    It was very similar to the current D600/D610 situation, almost identical.
     
  87. sorry to hear you've had bad experience with refurb lenses, shun. i've always bought new except for 3-4 used non-nikon lenses, but the whole idea of refurb is that they're supposed to be restored to factory spec. Derek's post is a horror story, but hopefully that hasnt been the experience of most refurb body buyers.
    And how many will say "Nikon used to be good, but now I'd buy a....." if they continue to charge these prices for sub-standard workmanship?​
    i think we might be at that point now. if i wasnt so invested in nikon lenses, i'm not sure i wouldnt jump on an OMD E-M1, a Fuji X-mount body, or even the new Pentax k-3. it may not be a coincidence that nikon's rep for QC started going downhill when they moved their production facilities from Japan to Thailand and China. the d600 is made in Thailand, btw.
    It was very similar to the current D600/D610 situation, almost identical.​
    what i find interesting is that instead of calling the camera the d600s, they named it the d610. from a marketing standpoint, that almost seems like an admission that the d600 is cursed, and that nikon just wants to be rid of it. Not a very considerate move for current d600 owners who spent $2000 on a redheaded stepchild who's now been disowned by papa.
     
  88. "Made in Japan" still means something. Having lived in Japan for a year, I can attest to their perfectionist nature. This might be a pain when you're trying to make you boss understand why you did something a certain, non-Japanese way, but the quality of goods on offer is second to none within the borders of the country. There are many many products made for the domestic market which most people never see, which are just great and not expensive for the quality you are given.
    Just look at Levi's, the American Legend (who,er, sold all their traditional looms to the Japanese in the '80s). I was in one of their stores a while back and their premium range now proudly states "Made in Japan". Edwin still hand-finish their denims individually, but Evisu quality has dropped since moving production to....Italy!
    Sort of makes you wonder doesn't it?
     
  89. Eric - Did that lack of QC extend to the Japanese plants? Both the X100/S and the D800/E are made in Japan. Politics aside, I usually worry a lot less about country of origin and more about the people in charge. Apple, for instance, has successfully made a quite a reputation for getting complex, high quality gadgets assembled in China.
    Stephen - Levi's (now) has a premium range that's still made in the US, it's funny how these things come full circle.
    Shun - I agree the D600/D610 situation is quite similar to the D70/D70s, and SB-900/SB-910. IMO that's the entire problem. Sure, it hasn't sunk Nikon yet, but that's not a great predictor of the future... especially in the face of increased competition on all fronts.
    Blackberry (née Research in Motion) was able to coast for a while with two tone deaf CEOs and a product lineup that was hardly customer driven. Sure, their current phones (Q10/Z10) look fantastic. I'd even rate BB10 as far more user friendly (and attractive) than Android, iOS, or wince. Fat lot of good it's done them now though.
     
  90. well, my d300s is made in thailand, and my d3s is made in japan. neither has failed me yet. it's just when you go to cheaper labor, you are cutting corners, and sometimes that comes back to bite you.
    the larger issue, though, is that nikon has damaged its rep with a valuable segment of its customer base--those willing to shell out 2 grand for a body. it's not just that they had a major QC issue, it's the way they handled it. at the very least, to restore confidence, they should have honored out-of-warranty repairs for the shutter defect in perpetuity. that would have sent a message to nikon owners that the company stands behind its products and will make things right if it screws up. instead we get a middle finger and a do-over model.
    coming at a time when there's more competition than ever from segments nikon has underestimated or just hasnt been as innovative in, that could be bad news. if you want to look at the bright side, we now have the elusive $1500 FF body and $2000 kit. but it's hard to have much confidence there since the defect is showing up after months of use in some cases.
     
  91. if you want to look at the bright side, we now have the elusive $1500 FF body and $2000 kit.​
    Eric, I'm not sure where you shop, but I'll refer to my post from earlier... Your prices are in dreamland!!
    £1799 body only.......and £2299 with the 24-85mm.................that's ~$2900 & $3700!
    OK, if the price quoted in the OP is $2000 and $2600, how much will you actually pay in the USA?​
     
  92. mike, the link i included in my post is for an adorama kit with the d600 and 24-85 AF-S for $2000. adorama is also selling the d600 refurbs for $1539. so, it does appear one of us is dreaming, but it's not me ;)
     
  93. Eric, your elusive full-frame body for $1500 has been available for years...it's called a second hand D700 or D3.
    I was meaning new...I kinda thought you were too.....anyone can play old, second-hand pricing.
     
  94. Mike — B&H has the D600 (new) + 24-85, monopod, bag, SD card, extra battery, etc for $2200, which is still a fair bit cheaper than $3700. As best I can tell Nikon's UK pricing defies logic. Or that could be a sign that Nikon does not expect the D600 to be very durable, $3700 is what it takes to make a profit with the UK's strong consumer protection laws.
     
  95. Alex, Eric...I was writing about the new D610 price structure, not the D600. Sorry for any confusion.
    The UK (Nikon) prices are still roughly 30% higher than the US.
     
  96. mike, as i stated before, a refurb d600 is $1500. i expect we'll see prices fall on remaining new stock as well. the 24-85 VR is a $600 lens. so with the current adorama sale, you're actually getting a new body for $1400. if you were hoping for a $1500 d610, you are surely dreaming!
     
  97. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Eric, do you remember that in December last year (2012), Nikon was selling the new D600 with the 24-85 AF-S VR as a kit for $1999? http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bBAO
    Now that the D600 is an "old model," the current sale price merely matches the price from almost a year ago. People were turning around to dump the 24-85 AF-S VR for $300 to $400 because they only wanted the D600. In reality, the net value for the D600 is around $1600 to $1700. By that same token, the listed $2600 price for the D610 kit is just not realistic, as the lens should be discounted.
    Nikon must have been desperate to meet some sales target towards the end of 2012. By January 2013, those deals were gone. Let's see whether those deals will return this year for the D610.
     
  98. I tihnk maybe give it a wee while and you may see *some* $1600-700US body alone for the D610.
    I got my D600 from HKG as a new item for $1600-700US (shutter at 1) with a warranty card inside. But this was 1.5yrs after they annouced the D600 (2yrs to now isn't it). Used D600 could drop to $1200 maybe ..
     
  99. in December last year (2012), Nikon was selling the new D600 with the 24-85 AF-S VR as a kit for $1999? http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bBAO
    i read on Nikonians those kits dropped as low as $1600. at that price, it might be worth it, especially if you buy an external 5-year warranty. not sure i trust a 90-day one.
     
  100. But this was 1.5yrs after they annouced the D600 (2yrs to now isn't it)​
    Nope, it isn't. Introduction of the D600 was September 13, 2012, not quite 13 months ago.
     
  101. I'm glad I stuck with DX and have no problems with my current crop of croppers.
     
  102. Dave:
    I agree with you. My d7100 is more than fine for the time being.
    -Cheers
     
  103. It's amazing what some we're willing to accept with the D-600 had it not been for the shutter issue intern the oil issue. Now that the camera is fixed! its as if it was never a player.
     
  104. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I'm glad I stuck with DX and have no problems with my current crop of croppers.
    Dave:
    I agree with you. My d7100 is more than fine for the time being.​
    The two of you are weird. For those who use DX, you are supposed to complain about the lack of this D400. :)
     
  105. There seems to be a new kind of G.A.S. - Gear Angst Syndrome. When a new model is released, the Internet lights up with complaints about features that it should have had.
    The D610 sounds like a very nice camera at a wonderful price. Remember less than two years ago when 24MP from Nikon used to cost $7,999? We've come a long way! The D7100 seems like a nice camera, too. From my experience, full frame yields better IQ for the same or similar MP count, but the D7100 has the lack of an anti-aliasing filter going for it, so IQ could very well be comparable.
    Regardless, all of Nikon's DSLRs are amazing compared to what we were using a few years ago. So, grab your best glass and let that G.A.S. pass!
     
  106. So Shun, what you're saying is that the D410 likely is on it's way....
     
  107. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    So Shun, what you're saying is that the D410 likely is on it's way....​
    No, actually it is the D411. Dial 411 to find out the details .... :)
    For those who live outside of North America or are too young to know about 411, try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-1-1
     
  108. The camera is fixed, get over it.
     
  109. Now we get to wait for the first guy to buy one and report back that he has a speck of dust on his sensor.
    --Lannie
     
  110. Typically, when a manufacturer introduces a bottom-of-the-line model within a pro-line series, its selected feature set will be limited in ways solely to differentiate the product to prevent cannibalization of models higher in the line, even if that differentiation is perceived as "artificial" (e.g., as Shun mentions--the lack of a dedicated AF-ON button, where there appears to be room for one). My pet peeve is the lack of one-click, 100% zoom on playback (an essential feature for fast-paced event shooting).
    I don't own a D600, but I think the oil issue is both real, and rather pervasive. It's a really unfortunate turn of events, just as the D800/E asymmetrical-AF issue was, and together, have done more damage to the Nikon brand than anything else in recent memory. For new Nikon customers, the introduction of the D610 is a good thing; however, current D600 owners are now left feeling a bit betrayed. All I can say, is that if you're a current D600 owner with on-going issues, I would suggest a continued dialogue with Nikon until your issue is resolved to your complete satisfaction.
     
  111. current D600 owners are now left feeling a bit betrayed​
    Early adopters (those ordering a new camera the day it's announced, sight unseen) should know the risk they are taking. The oil/debris issue surfaced a month after the introduction - so anyone having done their homework was aware of a potential issue and decided to purchase anyway. They gambled - and as we all know, not all gambles pay out.
    No one was "betrayed" - Nikon could have certainly handled the issue better, no doubt. But they are handling it and repairs are being made - and from what I read elsewhere, will continue to be made even after the warranty period is over (not sure if that means free of charge though). Erosion of confidence is something a lot of us must feel though.
    All I can say, is that if you're a current D600 owner with on-going issues, I would suggest a continued dialogue with Nikon until your issue is resolved to your complete satisfaction.​
    Most certainly. Some countries have better consumer protection laws than the US - so people their have a better chance of getting either their money back or perhaps an upgrade to the D610.
     
  112. Dieter said:
    No one was "betrayed"​
    That's not what I said. From all of what I've read, both here and elsewhere, D600 owners with on-going issues, in general, appear to feel betrayed. I didn't make any assessment as to whether Nikon betrayed its customers or not.
     
  113. It does seem that Nikon was rather slow to acknowledge the scope of the problem. I'll say again what I said above, since it conveys some of my mixed feelings about a brand that I have come to love:
    Nikon should in the future be more direct in addressing persistent rumors and remedying their cause. Failure to do so hurt sales in the case of the D600, and it will do so again if Nikon tries to ignore an issue in the future.​
    I've been lucky so far in my purchases. I can't imagine how I would have felt if I had ordered a new camera that kept spewing dust or oil--but especially oil.
    Turnaround time on repairs is another area where Nikon is being perceived as being weaker than the competition. The general perception seems to be growing that Nikon is rather cavalier about customer service.
    --Lannie
     
  114. Landrum said:
    It does seem that Nikon was rather slow to acknowledge the scope of the problem. I'll say again what I said above, since it conveys some of my mixed feelings about a brand that I have come to love . . .​
    As a long-time, brand-loyal Nikon customer, I can't tell you how disappointed I've become with them. Actually, more like disillusioned. But, I also understand the incredibly difficult position they must be in. I honestly believe the D600/D800/E problems were so pervasive, that Nikon realized it would've been financially catastrophic to go on the record about either issue--I don't think they had a choice. I'm not excusing Nikon, I just think they were dealt an incredibly difficult hand.
     
  115. No one was "betrayed"​
    Sorry, this should have read "no one should feel betrayed". Though I certainly would have liked had Nikon stepped up to the plate and admitted to the issue rather than taking the actions it did - which certainly leave a bad taste in the mouth. I tend to agree with what Shun wrote above though - Nikon openly admitting to either issue (D800 and D600) might have caused a lot of perfectly fine cameras to be send in for service. There might have been other ways to deal with the issue than a complete recall. Moreover, the D600 dust issue was reported within a month of the D600 shipping - so at that time, no more than an estimated 100,000 D600 would have been shipped anyway.
    Nikon was rather slow to acknowledge the scope of the problem​
    And to the best of my knowledge have not done so ever publicly - they do, however, fix cameras that are send in by replacing the shutter. Though from several posts I have read, the fix sometimes doesn't fix the problem.
    I can't recall all the details, but I know that there are several posts here on photo.net that praise Nikon customer service handling of the D70 BGLOD issue.
    I can't imagine how I would have felt if I had ordered a new camera that kept spewing dust or oil--but especially oil.​
    I CAN imagine how that would have made me feel ;-) However tempting, I didn't want to gamble even the $1600 for a refurbished one.
     
  116. Landrum — Nikon still hasn't acknowledged any problems (compare this to the Pentax/Ricoh response to oil stains on the K5's sensor). But that hasn't stopped a few threads on dpreview (and elsewhere) from popping up complaining about oil on the Nikon provided D610 sample image.
    Don — Times change. When the D600 was introduced it was billed as the upgrade for D7000 users. Essentially it's a D7000 with an FX sensor. When the D610 was introduced the D7000 was already a generation out of date. Essentially the D610 is still a D7000 with an FX sensor. It's outclassed by the D7100 in every way except for the sensor (which given the identical resolution means it's down to high ISO performance and crop factor -- neither of which may be an issue for many people). It'd be like VW reintroducing the Beetle, billing it as an upgrade to a Polo, and pricing it like a Golf. Forty years ago, people might have been impressed. Today? Doubtful.
    The D70s got a bigger rear LCD, and the D70 got whatever firmware based improvements were made to the D70s. So far the D600's gotten bupkis, and the D610's got a fancy new knob. Should people be falling all over themselves with joy now that Nikon's released a new camera that doesn't officially fix the non-issue with the D600?
    Dieter — Canon, Fuji, and Pentax have all owned up to problems with their cameras and initiated service campaigns. None has suffered financial ruin as a result. Owning up to the problems would have put the rumors to rest. Instead, the rumor mill is working overtime.
     
  117. +1 Alex.
    What provides the light for the AF Assist Illuminator? Is it still a true 'bulb' or is it an LED now?
     
  118. Owning up to the problems would have put the rumors to rest. Instead, the rumor mill is working overtime.​
    My point exactly. And avoided the erosion of confidence in the brand.
     
  119. I think my opinons on this are known. Put simply, I am very glad I an not invested in Nikon glass, haing only two affordable primes in addition to the kit lens I didn't know I didn't need when I got my D5100. I keep telling myself "Oh, just get a D7100-it's really very good". But it sticks in my craw to have to choose between a pro DX that's 6 years old, a consumer DX with little better HI ISO performance than my current camera, or paying 12,000 yuan for a camera with an inferior AF module and which still has frikking scene modes!
    Having decided that I am not happy enough with the limitations of the MFT sensors (I was hoping the GH3 would be better than it is and the GX7 is just too expensive) for one to be my main camera, I am going to stick with a DSLR and use the GX1 as my 'P&S'. So if there is a terrible shock at the review of the K-3 I'll be getting a K-5 II, if it's as good as we all hope it is, I'll be getting a K-3. Nikon will be getting no more of my money.
    They brought it on themselves.
     
  120. I can't say the scene modes would bother me (I'm capable of ignoring one dial position I don't use, and I may actually use the user modes if they were offered to me). As for gotchas about the K-3, it does have highly clustered AF points (much more so than, say a D7100). And it's effectively the same sensor, option to jiggle it aside, which means you still won't get any better ISO performance than a D5100. Oh, and I believe the battery life is a bit on the iffy side, probably because of buzzing the sensor. And there are no big telephotos available for Pentax - except from Sigma. But I have to admit that Pentax got some extra fps out of it and seem to have added a decent buffer, presumably because they're not competing with anything higher up. (Not that this has stopped Nikon in some cases - which "higher-up" body was I supposed to buy to get trap focus back?)

    Still, I've nothing against people who are tempted by the K-3 - I'm just pointing out that all is not rosy. Meanwhile, we should remember that the D700 was released with a recycled sensor from a D3 that was low resolution even when it was launched, and competed against a 21MP Canon camera. It happens that the D700 was very popular, mostly because Nikon could allow it to poach D3 features, just as the 5D2 pretty much killed the 1Ds3. Since Nikon can't "pull a D4s", it's hard to look back at the D700 and complain that a cheaper, lighter camera with twice the resolution, a higher frame rate (without the grip), twice the sensitivity and double the card slots is not good enough because the AF is only the second best Nikon offers (and still has more points than Pentax offer with the K3, and way ahead of the 6D or K5) and Nikon differentiated it in the few ways that they could from the more expensive bodies. And Nikon will happily sell you a D800 or D4 if you like. If you want a pro camera, all you have to do is pay for it. I'm sure the D610 has scene modes because it's a consumer camera, and Nikon believe that some proportion of the customers will use them.

    The D610 looks to be a very impressive camera, just as the D600 was. It's not all things to all people. It certainly doesn't have every feature of the more expensive cameras, because otherwise there'd be no reason to have the more expensive camera. And you can't make a camera that is all things to all people cheaply - and if you could, business says you should probably charge quite a lot for it.

    If the D610 or D7100 don't do what you want, there are alternatives. They'll have problems in other ways and different compromises, but if they solve your problems, good luck with them; Nikon already have a confusing number of cameras, and I can't see that having D600 variants for every possible way of differentiating from the D800 and D4 is going to help their overstock problem or production costs, so sometimes you can't expect Nikon to deliver everything. It's interesting that Nikon solved the D700's resolution problem (in spades) and Canon solved the 5D2's autofocus problems in the next generation, so they both prioritized new sales over existing customers - or to put it another way, they fixed their customers' biggest complaints. If we're lucky, they'll do the same with the D620 (51-point AF?) and D7200 (buffer?)

    Nikon could have handled things better, no doubt. But I don't really see that releasing a D610 has been their biggest crime here, other than that they reminded everyone of the problems.
     
  121. Landrum — Nikon still hasn't acknowledged any problems (compare this to the Pentax/Ricoh response to oil stains on the K5's sensor). But that hasn't stopped a few threads on dpreview (and elsewhere) from popping up complaining about oil on the Nikon provided D610 sample image.​
    Whether Nikon has verbally acknowledged the problem, it has certainly addressed it in the best possible way: with actions, not words. The D610 is likely to be what the D600 should have been--and the D610 is hardly two generations behind current technology. The D600 was announced in September, 2012, if I am not mistaken, barely over a year ago. A lot of people are going to buy the D610, and the odds are very, very good that the problems have been resolved. A couple of anecdotes about dust on the sensor of the D610 are not going to change that fact. That is going to happen with every model.
    I am still sorry for those who had to put up with the problem for over a year. I am sure that it seemed much longer.
    As for myself, I am the guy who had to sell all of his Canon gear to stay alive after he lost his job in October, 2011. I loved Canon, but I won't be changing brands again. I like my current Nikons very much, even if I had to buy two of them used. Where there's a will, there's a way--and my D800E (the only one I bought new) is a heck of a camera. No problems from this quarter--even with the lenses that I also had to buy used.
    --Lannie
     
  122. it has certainly addressed it in the best possible way: with actions, not words. The D610 is likely to be what the D600 should have been​
    That would be all very well if Nikon replaced every faulty D600 with a new D610.....which they won't be doing because, to them, 'There is NO problem'.
    Go figure why people are being a bit 'negative' about Nikon's customer relations!
     
  123. When did they say there was no problem?
    As a reminder, I'm just going to quote the entire service advisory below, and note that this went out 8 months ago and only 4 months after the first reports of a problem started showing up. Note that it says that you should try the sensor clean function (a reasonable first step) and if you still have problems contact customer service, and the camera will be serviced.
    How is this any less reasonable than any other company's reaction to a product fault? Eight months after Nikon started servicing the problem, still complaining about it seems a bit silly.
    Thank you for choosing Nikon for your photographic needs.

    Some D600 users have reported the appearance of random spots on their images which is generally attributed to the natural accumulation of dust.
    While understanding that dust will occur over time, and steps may be taken to reduce the occurrence, the complete elimination of these dust spots may sometimes be difficult.

    It has come to our attention that, in some rare cases, they may be reflected noticeably in images and removal may be difficult using normal measures. Therefore, Nikon is informing users of a service to reduce this issue.

    Resolution:

    As a first step, please follow the guidance from the D600 User's Manual (pages 301-305) related to the Clean Image Sensor function and manual cleaning using a blower bulb.
    If these measures do not remove all dust particles and you are still experiencing problems, then please consult your nearest Nikon service center. The technicians will examine the camera thoroughly, and service it as needed.

    Requesting service:

    See the following for instructions on requesting service by a Nikon service center.

    http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Service-And-Support/Service-And-Repair.page

    Please direct inquiries regarding this matter to your nearest Nikon service center.

    We hope that you will continue to choose Nikon for your photographic needs.​
     
  124. In the last few years there has been the back-focussing isse with the D7000, the continuing focus issue with the D800 and the shutter issue with the D600. Not to mention a lot of people crying out for a D400 who have been totally ignored. Not only is the line-up wrong for many people, with no clear upgrade path from a D300 and a "give-with-one-hand-take-with-the-other" approach with the D600, not even a D800 can be seen as an expensive but worry-free option. These genuine, continuing and unacknowledged q.c. concerns are possibly the true killer. The K-3 IS, as was pointed out, effectively a D400, the K-5 a compelling product for anyone comparing it to a D5100/5200. So not only are Nikon in effect making sure that something is missing from everything but a D800 (buffer, AF, ergonomics), they aren't even making that right!
    It's too much.
     
  125. I never saw any indication that D7000 "backfocus" was more than user error and improperly calibrated lenses. When I got my D7000 I found that a couple of lenses needed AF fine tune, which is easy, and which I hadn't noticed before because I never had that much pixel density. The same lenses need fine tune on my D800.This is not a real "problem".
    My D800 (like most people's) focuses fine - and if you get one that doesn't Nikon will fix it. Same as a D600.
    Stephen, do you even have any of these cameras? You mentioned you shoot DX. If you're not satisfied with your current camera the D7100 is really quite good.
     
  126. "Do even have any of these cameras?"
    Is the implication that if I haven't spent a fortune on Nikon's recent products I'm not allowed to make assumptions based on countless threads from people who do?
    I know what the D7100 is. I don't want it.
     
  127. My D800 (like most people's) focuses fine​
    Same here. I know that that is anecdotal evidence, but the fact is that the D800E typically has NO problems for the vast majority of users.
    --Lannie
     
  128. Stephen, many of us would consider switching to Pentax if it would even TRY to offer a full-frame camera. It makes the very excellent 645D medium format camera and a number of wonderful crop sensor cameras.
    No one is denying that Pentax makes very high quality equipment. It is one of the great brands. There is no doubt about that.
    --Lannie
     
  129. That's fair comment, Lannie. I'm not trying to sound overly negative, though this might be a losing battle! I'm simply voicing my frustrations and disappointment. But hopefully I will get the right setup soon. I am genuinely pleased for all those Nikonistas who have bought fault-free products and are enjoying their shooting. Interestingly, no Canon product (apart from the 5DIII) has appealled. Maybe the Big Two are so busy eyeing each other up they're forgetting there are quite a lot of other companies out there?
    Anyway. Happy shooting to you all.
    Steve
     
  130. Lannie said:
    I like my current Nikons very much, even if I had to buy two of them used. Where there's a will, there's a way--and my D800E (the only one I bought new) is a heck of a camera. No problems from this quarter--even with the lenses that I also had to buy used.​
    Nothing wrong with that! A large percentage of my photographic inventory is either Nikon-refurbished, or used. This stuff is just too expensive to pay full-retail for everything. I have one refurbished Nikon D3s, and another used D3s (which saved me about $3,000, total). Both were like-new, and continue to operate flawlessly. Most of my lenses and strobe gear are either refurbs or used as well. I did buy my D800E at full-retail (ouch!), including sales tax, ordered from a local dealer.
     
  131. Lannie said:
    Same here. I know that that is anecdotal evidence, but the fact is that the D800E typically has NO problems for the vast majority of users.​
    I had problems with two D800E bodies. The second one (the one I kept) didn't appear to have the left-AF issue, but it did require severe AF fine-tune adjustment values (+15 to +20) for every AF-S lens I owned, and for my AF-S 70-200mm f/2.8G, it was even out-of-range. So during its last month of warranty, I took it to Nikon. When I got it back the third time, it exhibited a severe right-AF problem (an issue it didn't have before). It was so severe, even the most casual back-of-the-LCD test revealed a significant focus error (I performed these tests right in Nikon's lobby).
     
  132. Stephen, my point is that you're in a forum, complaining about cameras you don't have or intend to buy, and for somebody with no personal knowledge of the subject this seems like quite a lot of complaining. Maybe you could buy a Pentax and go complain on that board instead?
     
  133. I think the view that if someone could 'MacGyver' a fully functioning Nikon F mount onto the (re-badged) Pentax K-3*, it would answer some of the 'Why Won't Nikon Make What WE WANT' people, is fully valid!
    That is for DX cameras however, so probably lives on the 'Where's My D400' thread...:)
    *Bit like the Fuji S Pro series on a Nikon D200 chassis.
     
  134. Andy, I have one DSLR and have been trying to find the right replacement Nikon for a while. With some resignation, I have finally had to admit that there was nothing in Nikon's line-up. Asking questions and spending time on PN has been a large part of my not buying the wrong body , as I learn more about each option. I have the right to air my views. I have done so. I will do so again if i feel like it. If you don't like the fact, simply scroll past my name, though it seems you were so riled by my besmirchment of your brand that you didn't notice that my last post was a polite farewell.
     
  135. I don't care about the brand - actually I'd ditch my Nikons in a minute if the Fuji line developed certain capabilities I keep finding myself needing. I'd like to know about the pros and cons of these models because my father's looking to buy a new body and has been asking about them but I get annoyed that it's impossible to have a discussion of particular topics without people turning it into a whine fest. Reading through all this is annoying.
     
  136. Just to keep this rolling, I do have some AF issues with my D800, but it's probably nothing that spending longer trying to fine tune the AF wouldn't solve. Why Nikon haven't got around to automating the procedure using live view yet, I've no idea. I suspect I see more problems because of the resolution increase, compared with my D700.

    Stephen: The K3 is, it would appear, a lovely camera with a D300s frame rate and buffer, a D7100 sensor, a sub-D7000 AF system, and no native support for many of the high-end lenses that are key to a pro system. There are, admittedly, good third-party options for the 24-70 and 70-200 range (I slightly wish I'd gone with Tamron's latest 70-200 instead of the Nikkor), but the lack of a 200 f/2 or 500 f/4 would really put me off. Pentax's system has its own advantages - I like the limited lenses - but there's a reason the pros stick with Canon and Nikon. I wouldn't get tunnel vision for the deficiencies of the D7100 when switching. YMMV. (Maybe I should mention that D3 bodies are getting cheaper these days - and no frame rate or buffer issues there...) I want to stress that I'm not claiming Nikon is perfect, or that you'd be wrong to switch - and if doing so would make you happier, I sincerely hope that you do. But every camera system has compromises, and the hype about the K3 being a "(Ricoh) Pentax D400" might blind some people (others reading this thread if not you) to the weaker points of the new camera. The grass is always greener on the other side. I switched from Canon partly out of frustration about the repeated delays for the 5D2; I don't really regret it, but I did do a double take after I got my D700 when the resolution of the 5D2 was announced, and when I consider that some of Canon's line-up is newer and testing better than the Nikkors (24-70, 70-200, 17mm TS, 200-400, 300mm, 600mm...)
     
  137. I appreciate both the content and tone of your post Andrew and you do make valid points. A couple of visits to some Pentax forums has made me aware of the sluggish AF of original K-5 and the fact that people are a bit nervy regarding the use of the Toshiba sensor. The AF system in the D7100 seems very good indeed and the new Pentax one has it's work cut out to be its equal- and yes, coverage is less than ideal. It is interesting to see the shot Pentax are using to illustrate its usefulness on their UK website. As to lenses, I only want a 50mm equiv prime. I have been using one for the last year (35/1.8 DX) and have the desire for a different FL seldom, although it would be foolish to assume that this will necessarily be the case for the life of my next camera, which hopefully will be going strong for the next 5-6 years.
     
  138. Glad to have been useful Stephen - and yes, it's interesting that Pentax's sample images for their AF are conveniently central in focus point (especially the dragonfly!) And if you're not going to need to make use of the extensive Canon and Nikon ecosystems, there's nothing wrong with the other manufacturers. You sound like a good candidate for a Pentax - if you get a K-3, I hope it suits you.

    Now, about the full-frame mirrorless cameras that Sony has just released... (It appears that the D800E's sensor has just stopped being an exclusive.) Sony haven't generally done very well with their previous full frame range even though they've been priced much lower than the Canikon equivalents, but it'll be interesting to see how things turn out this time. I suspect the D800E is more threatened than the D610.
     
  139. ...and the Sony even does Full HD at 60p!
     
  140. The Sony is only less expensive than the mainstream competition if you don't factor in the lenses. Their 55/1.8 is... $1000. An interesting pair of cameras to be sure, but it's a non-starter until more reasonably priced lenses are released. Even something like an F-mount adapter that would preserve auto aperture would be a huge enticement IMO.
     

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