How do I renegotiate prices and are the photos mine after I got paid for shooting them but not having the client sign anything?

Here's the deal. I just graduated from college with a degree in

photojournalism. I learned the all aspects of working the camera and

taking good photos. What the school didn't teach was how to make a

living off of my photos. So when a friend of mine hooked me up with a

wholesaler to shoot some product shots I said sure. I spoke with the

wholesaler, "Karen", on the phone and she told me she could pay me

$200 for the photos and my time. After doing the work and giving her

the CD of 300 dpi edited photos (I'm slapping myself silly right now)

I now know I made a huge mistake after I researched on how to

negotiate pricing and the business aspect of photography. Believe me,

I wish I new about photo.net a lot sooner! "Karen" now wants me to

shoot more product photos for her. My question is this: How do I go

about letting her know that the fees that I charged her before have

increased? Also, does she have full ownership of the photos that I

took for her during our first session, since I didn't have her sign an

agreement? Anyone, please help me with this dilema..

Was that a mail order degree or did you sleep through that class, "How to Make a Living in Photography."?

 

The phrase, "and my time", is a clue that she meant it to be a, work-for-hire, meaning, she owns the image rights.

 

The second clue is that product shots are mostly useless for anyone but the buyer and you won't want the originals anyway. Charge a little more. I just did one of these and charged $400.00 for about four hours of work, still pretty cheap. What you charge is dependent on where your market is and what the buyer can pay.

 

Okay, consider it a lesson learned, always indicate up front, copyright is yours unless they want to negotiate a buy-out.

 

Charge for photo time and computer work separately. Charge individually for CD's delivered.

 

good luck

.

 

Hi Uriah,

 

1 - Get a lawyer. Seriously. Read a book on the subject. Know your song well before you start singing (Bob Dylan wrote that). Before you talk to her, read the book and then talk to the lawyer. Call any number of listed professional photographers until one answers and chats and recommends a lawyer - I imagine only 10 calls will satisfy this, and you'll learn a lot in the process - better than "school"! Spend at least an hour WELL PREPARED from reading your book with that recommended lawyer. Then call her back.

 

2 - YOU own the copyright from the moment you click the shutter.

 

3 - Without a written contract, no judge in the world would presume you gave up the copyright for your exchange in the transaction, but the exchange does indicate that you sold her something. Sadly, you probably sold her the ability to use the shots now in her possession any where, anytime, but at least NOT EXCLUSIVELY, as you can also sell your own copies time and again to anyone else. Without a written contract, she can't claim you turned over ownership of either the copyright or the originals. She didn't buy your materials nor supply the camera, so there no argument as to who owns the copyright - THE PHOTOGRAPHER. A lawyer may tell her EXACTLY what her $200 bought and injunct her to cease and decist if she infracts.

 

But, hey, congratulations on a first sale and a happy customer - she wants you back. She may be used to buying $200 worth of royalty-free clip art and is happy to have what she thinks is the same, only custom and on demand. You da boss of what you next sell and what you sell it for. Also, ask her what she HAS been doing before you, and what are her alternatives - do research, ASK the customer a lot of questions, and LISTEN, take notes, and check out her other sources!

 

Tell us how it goes and how happy you are. You've made more money in direct sales of photos than I have (I've only sold my labor in support of of other photographer's "systems" and setups).

 

Click!

 

Love and hugs,

 

Peter Blaise peterblaise@yahoo.com Minolta Alpha Photographer http://www.peterblaisephotography.com/

If you haven't discussed copyright , you still own the copyright. Info on how to register your copyright is at:

 

http://www.editorialphoto.com/copyright/

 

As far as negotiating raising your prices well, negotiation is part ofthe game and beyond the principles no one had make tyo ua good or better negotiator. The fundamentals are; ask a lot of questions sytartign with : how will the photos be used?

 

As to how much to charge , figure out your cost of doing business and how muuch profit you want your business to make.

200 bucks and you have to set some of that aside for your income tax contribution at year's end.

 

 

 

Life is a learning experience. You learned one part. Now you get to make up a price sheet and do some figuring: by the image; by the day; by the project? How much do expect to earn (keeping up your insurance, meals, equipment, etc., all factor in?)

 

 

 

 

Good luck!

Your initial contract appears to be a one-off verbal agreement. If so you're free to renegotiate further dealings (not the previous one).

 

Also what "300 dpi edited photos"? What print size in pixels?

Hey, Bill:

 

Re:

 

"The phrase, "and my time", is a clue that she meant it to be a, work-for-hire, meaning, she owns the image rights. "

 

You haven't got the faintest clue about what you're talking about. You are absolutely wrong on this. STOP pretending you know about something you're totally clueless about. You are hurting other photographers with your nonsense. And you have the nerve to criticize Uriah's lack of business savvy.

 

David Brennan

I'd expect the images are yours from a copyright standpoint - there are some fairly specific legal hoops that need to be jumped through to establish a "work for hire" situation. (Go read the Library of Congress site on copyrights thoroughly - it's a good primer on copyright issues.) In a negative sort of way, copyright ownership here is less an issue than resolving "usage." You might be able to stop them using the images - and depending on subject matter, they may be able to keep you from using them, too. That's kind of a lose-lose situation. How much will it cost to go to court and get everything thrown out - to start again at ground zero, if necessary? There seem to be a variety of contract holes - you apparently didn't establish usage, can we assume you didn't clarify what "your time" might be? Which is why it may be just as easy or cheaper to just kick those images loose and forget about them and this shoot and just do better next time.

 

You are really in a poor position to renegotiate for much. You want to keep them from using them and maybe you want to use them yourself (which may well be as easy for them to block as well - trademark, trade dress, etc.). They may be out $200 and schedule, even if they never use the images, which in a practical sense may be hard to police.

 

So, now you need to spend time with the books, the accountant and the lawyers to get to speed on contracts, "work-for-hire," and copyright, usage and the like.

 

Do you want or expect to do business with them again? Do you thimk they took advantage of you or is this mutual bumbling? You aren't bound by the original terms (whatever they may or may not be) in future shoots. But they may find a "prepared" pro is more expensive than they'd like to pay.

What if "Karen" has already registered "her? :)" images for copyright! ?

Have a look here:

 

http://www.editorialphoto.com/copyright/

 

Unless you sign to relinquish your copyright, you still have it. However, be careful about signing any kind of contract on behalf of her company, as if you become an employee, for no matter how long, they will own everything, including your soul, until you leave. And then you have nothing.

 

As for re-negotiating, tricky, why not tell her in a nice letter that was your introductory rate, and then give her the new rates.

She has photographs to use in accordance with what she wanted them for, she doesn't get your intellectual property. She would have difficulty copywrighting them I think, as to do that you have to state you are the creator of the images or have proof of relinquished copyright.

Dave,

 

Just trying to stimulate a conversation, thanks for playing.

 

Regardless of what the law intimates, it is each one's responsibility to outline the parameters of the job. There is always some photo buyers who will claim ownership if you let them. Going to a lawyer every time a job isn't spelled out will be expensive.

 

Of course, I've only been published 300 times and only have a dozen covers and but what do I know? One of my photographs hangs in the Telluride Gallery and my work is also sold at Gouldings in Monument Valley, and in a 12 card postcard pack sold there. I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, could I?

 

 

cheers,

 

http://www.billproudphotography.com

.

 

Earlier in this thread: "...You haven't got the faintest clue about what you're talking about. You are absolutely wrong on this. STOP pretending you know about something you're totally clueless about. You are hurting other photographers with your nonsense. And you have the nerve to criticize [othere's] lack of business savvy ..."

 

Peter Blaise responds: We're all photography enthusiasts here, none of us gets paid, we're all volunteers offering our experience for others to do with what they wish.

 

Can we PLEASE be a little less attacking of each other and a little more supportive of and grateful to each other even when we disagree?

 

I can't imagine that anyone's contribution here is worthy of denigration. Perhaps we are thinking of our own unhealed childhood wounds when we attack each other here. I suggest the wonderful resources at http://www.imagotherapy.com/ and leave such personal growth off list.

 

Thanks to EVERYONE for their apparently undauntable and bottomless helpfulness, one and all!

 

Click!

 

Love and hugs,

 

Peter Blaise Monahon peterblaise@yahoo.com

Konica Minolta Olympus Contax Yashica Pentax Canon Nikon Nikkor Vivitar Tamron Samyang Cosina Fujifilm Ilford Kodak Agfa Adobe Hewlett Packard et cetera Photographer ... have I left anyone out? Oh, yes - Leica tripods! ;-) And what now, Sony, too?!? =8^o http://www.peterblaisephotography.com/<div></div>

Thanks everybody for the positive responses and information that will help me and other photogs make better business decisions when it comes to photography. I agree with Dave about Bill Prouds comment being unnecessary and impolite. There are better ways to simulate a dialogue other than being negative and rude. Bill, I just want to point out that the school that I went to is a university known for it's journalism. It wasn't a mail order type of degree that I recieved nor was I asleep in class. Unfortunately, the photojournalism department doesn't offer a class on the business aspect of photography. Trust me, if they did, I would of taken it. On the other hand a local community college in the city offers a class that focus' primarily on the business aspect of photography which I think I'll be taking this coming summer or fall. I just needed to make that clear after being belittled. I agree with Peter as well: Lets keep the positive vibe going and lets help one another out! Damn, I love this site! Keep up the good work!

Uriah,

 

Why is everybody so sensitive? I was just giving you some good natured guy grief as well as getting your attention. But I suppose if you would rather get your advice from someone who has never been published, or sold a picture, or done a work-for-hire, that is your option.

 

I sincerely apologize for offending you.

 

Will somebody throw me a bone here?

Bill - I'm with you on this all the way. There was nothing offensive in your post, in fact it was the most helpful and readily applicable in practice.

 

Uriah - get off your high horse. YOU've asked a question, Bill offered his wealth of experince and whhat did you do? Like a little girl. "...I agree with Dave about Bill Prouds comment being unnecessary and impolite..." utter nonsense.

 

As they say here in Oz, "put up or shut up", i.e get our of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat - blah blah blah

 

And get your PN subscriptions everyone, it's not free!

Folks who teach are rarely good businessmen. A person who had to struggle, sell goods door to door as a kid gains alot of street sense, hussle factor, and gains a great sense of when one is being taken to the cleaners. Teachers who have actually left the bubble, nipple of the university and dabbled with real jobs and customers can often be radically better teachers. <BR><BR>There seems to be too much worrying about what folks feel on this thread. Uriah should insure that the images are not lost to Karen, and not about "feelings". <BR><BR>Being hardnosed and holding firm ground might make one less a whuss, and not getting steamrollered with the next "deal", or do damage control to the present deal. Every education has holes in it. ALL of us have made mistakes before too. ALL of us have whussed out sometimes and been steamrollered. It maybe painfull to be closed minded and not want to learn. <BR><BR>The cost of running to a lawyer with every "event" is not cheap. Developing some protective plans and shields, to not get steamrollered by every "karen" who acts like a team player might take some DNA shifting, being a bastard, holding ground and not being a team player and caving in.<BR><BR> The "lets all be friends" is not going to pay the rent, when Karen has using your image for calendars, and getting a royalty. Being a bastard and saying "nuts" might be taught in miltary, but touchie feelie whussy university is often on another planet called tenure, they often cannot teach true bastard 101, or the lefties will get their panties in a knot. <BR><BR>A gentleman can be firm with what one owns, your images and not cave in. Some folks will ratchet so the game has you "feeling good", when your knickers and shoes are robbed. Study war. Study battles. Study sports. Study Love. Action in business and the battlefield doesnt stop when one has a player that has fuzz in his navel and his feelings are hurt. Other players will be kicking ass running forward on raw DNA. It takes mistakes to learn. <BR><BR>New players seem to like to sell themselves short and be fat dumb and happy with low paying photo gigs. Heck I did this alot too. With a new type of job, I was always eager more to learn than the money. Keep a log book, dumb as wood, on the time you spend on oddball jobs, so you can better your quotes in the future. <BR><BR>Figuring "prices" is an art in any industry. Experiment, grow a thicker skin, an never stop questioning dogma preached by others.

Owns the pictures? Sure. But he gave them away for $200 with nothing in the way of contract language to support any restrictions. Now he's smarted up and wants to renogoiate? Not going to happen. What tough guy school do you know that teaches, "Ooops. Sorry. I get a do over." What's this? 3 days door to door with a vaccuum? What court will want to deal with that?

 

We don't know waht the subject matter is. Maybe he might want to use them. So at best he can trade rights for these. Or kiss them off - he can't use them, they can't use them. And he won't work for them again.

 

She wants him to do more. Maybe he can fix it. Maybe he can't. Some people will do anything for money. If all they want is a doormat, move on. These are product shots for a wholesaler.

 

If he deals with them, get the ongoing rights fixed for all the images, neither side really wants to play watch and count the pennies forever on a few images out of what might be a stream of images. If he choses to move on after recontacting and trying to work with them. Then pay a lawyer to write a notice that you intend to enforce your copyright rights and be sure you've registered them.

I don't want to open another topic.. so I'll ask here.

Somebody wants to make an oilpainting based upon a landscape photograph of mine. How much should I charge? 50 / 100 / 200 usd ?!

I would ask him for 50 - 100 usd. Am I making a mistake.. or is it fare enough?