How can we improve this forum's value to all participants?

There are a number of "regulars" that have, and continue to contribute, to the p.net wedding forum. Of the

more experienced contributors, I wonder how stimulating coming here to assist has become ... maybe it's

just me, or is it just getting boringly repetitive?

 

Last year, there were many posts dealing with tutorials on specific subjects at the request of some less

experienced members. That seems to have completely disappeared and been replaced with a steady

stream of redundant inquiries such as "which lens", or "Here's my gear list, what else do I need?", and

similar questions .... all of which have been answered in excruciating detail previously, and available in the

search area.

 

Then there are the web site critique requests, or technical questions about web sites which, while not

repetitive in nature, are perhaps better asked elsewhere on p.net.

 

In contrast, the recent inquiry about dealing with eye glasses when using flash was quite practical and

offered innovative solutions. I personally loved the double shot with-and-without as a solution which I will

now employ myself when needed. So, old dogs can learn new tricks : -)

 

Personally, my interest here is waning, not because I can't learn a thing or two, but because I can't teach a

thing or two when it's the same question over and over. Doesn't anyone have an interesting inquiry

beyond what lens to use and when to use it? Isn't anyone interested in how the heck some of the

experienced members pull off the images they make? Is no one focused on making images, the design of

photographic images, expanding their creativity, capturing the decisive moment, etc. ... as opposed to

how their gear basically works ... most of which is in the manual that came with their gear?

 

Your thoughts?

Dear Mark,

 

You raise some very good points. I am an avid reader of this forum, but rarely respond unless I think someone is being picked on. I have had some very valuable info from this forum, but have become more selective about which posts I read. I live a long way from where many of your 'experts' are, and many of the model numbers of the gear is different, so I really do not know what people are talking about much of the time, when talking about gear. I did my first wedding with an RB6x7 and a Minolta XE5 which is now a collectors item. Both still work. No one seems to want to know the stuff I know, and this makes me think that what I do is 'old hat'. Maybe my customers do too, I don't know. I still seem to get them. I am of the view that a real photographer should be able to pick up just about any camera and do the job. It is all about the use of LIGHT afterall, and in my view one either has it or not. It really is something that one has to learn by looking at your own work, every photo, and asking 'what could I have done better here' and applying the answer next time.

There seems to be plenty of space here for people to talk about gear without coming onto this forum. Maybe more funny stories would help. I would like to see more 'people handling' posts, but the good guys are so natual at it that they believe every one else is the same.

Keep up the good work.

 

Donald.

Well Marc, I don't think it is just you.....many of the posts are repetitive and I'm amazed at how many people feel the need to focus so much attention on "what lens to use". I agree with Donald above and still have my Mamaya J645 & Minolta XE-7 that are still in working condition. Photography is afterall, "all about the light".

 

I no longer post to newbies asking for a critique, most of the time, if it's your first wedding....your images look like someone who just shot their first wedding. I no longer post proprietary information but will attempt to answer some of the posts regarding studio practices from the POV of a studio owner since the POV of the consumer and the "shooter" seems to be represented in abundance.

 

One of the things that keeps me coming back to Pnet is the wide variation in experience of those that offer to post to a question. The post about eyeglasses is a good example of the differences between experience, innovation, and downright silliness....it does make for interesting and amusing reading. I really don't mind many of the questions that could be posted to other forums because of their content (such as PS questions which could be applied to the "Digital Darkroom" forum, or questions about portraiture lighting that could appear in the "Lighting" forum, etc...) because I really only visit this forum on a regular basis. But, before asking a question, a quick search on Pnet is likely to guide me to an answer that may appear in another forum. Truth is, I don't mind the newbie questions, what I'd like to find is a forum "filter" that could selectively edit the "sophomoric posts & replies".

Hey Mark:

 

It has become very repetitive. 1st wedding after 1st wedding critique and the same old questions, not many people seem to search first. I spend more time on other forums where I learn a lot more.

I spend most of my time on the Lighting Forum. I don't shoot weddings but I do check this forum once in awhile because it is the only supposedly "professional" forum here on Photo Net.

 

I agree that most of the questions have been answered many, many times before and there is an over-abundance of the "what lens?, what flash?, look at my website!" types of questions.

 

But you know, it's much the same over on the Lighting Forum. Someone might ask about studio lighting for a particular situation and most of the responses involve using non-studio camera flashes because that's the experience level of most of the people that respond.

 

There seems to be less and less interest in real studio lighting equipment and techniques. Garry Edwards and I used to produce Lighting Themes that illustrated real professional lighting techniques.

 

Aside from a few regular readers, participation in those themes was weak. Eventually we stopped making the effort.

 

I find myself having a much lower expectation and interest level when I log on to Photo Net now than I did in the past. It hardly seems worth the effort to give a detailed, informative response to many of the questions that are posted today.

 

It's a shame, really.

I agree with most of you. I would like to see less talk about equiptment and more discussion about wedding experiences. Maybe some don't want to post their unusual or just plain bad shoots. I assume most of us know what we are doing with the camera but would like to hear about the good and bad stories of shooting a wedding. i am more interested in how you dealt with a situation rather than what lens you used.

I checked this forum for what I suspected would be one of my last times this morning and

was encouraged to find your post. I'm new to photo.net and was excited to come upon it

a few months ago. As a working pro for the last 12 years I feel I have much to contribute

(and even more to learn). I've been so disappointed and wondering if it was worth my time

- found many posts repetitive and even some that reflect no interest in actually learning.

I've seen advice offered by pros dismissed (sometimes rudely) if it's not what the op wants

to hear and do wonder where the more stimulating, situation-specific (as opposed to gear,

website critique) questions are? Not sure what a practical answer is - the forum does

seem to be broken down into adequate subcategories - but if enough people are

commited to raising the bar I'll hang on a little longer.

Sorry for the long post. I'm still new, as well - and don't post very often. Mostly I will look

for posts that are published by someone who I know is going to give good advice. I usually

just browse through the questions a few times a week or do a search if it's something

specific, but I've started spending more time in other lighting forums/blogs. One reason is

because they are kinda set up like a class with examples and homework.

I think it would be nice if the veterans regularly did a post of a recent wedding with a

stream of shots and any challenges or feedback or experimenting that they might have

done during it. then we could look at it and ask specifics about technicals or whatever.

This may be what you're trying to get away from, I don't know. But I often look at the

winners of the wpja photo constests and try to reverse engineer the photo.

On another note, I would still love to have a personal mentor, but there aren't enough to

go around here. As much time as I spend on lighting forums, this is where most of the

wedding peeps are - and that's what I enjoy shooting. I'm thinking out loud here, but what

if there were a separate section for mentor pairs that everyone could read but not make

changes to - just be bystanders? Like if pro and newbie can ask questions, give feedback,

post photos and everyone else can see the progress of the newbie over time and how the

pro reacts to different questions and their advice over time? It might help for those of us

who wanted to be

mentored by pros who were snatched up initially. Haven't thought this through, but it just

popped into my head.

... And I have to agree that I do have more anxiety posting questions on this board than I

do other forums:(

Let me begin by saying that I am not a professional photographer. I am, though, suffiently competent after 35 years of shooting and processing for my own enjoyment to recognize questions that might lead to learning and posters who might provide valuable insights. I am a regular visitor to this forum and a half dozen others on pnet. I visit this forum because of large number of professional practitioners. And because I gain enough insights to induce me to return.

 

Like the posts above, I rarely open a query about gear, web sites or critiques. But I always click on those that ask intriguing questions, hoping to find a trick I can use. The eyeglass post, for example, lured me because I had just read of the technique in Kelby's new CS3 book and I wanted to see how others were approaching the problem.

 

That said, there is a group of you, maybe a couple dozen, whose responses to questions are a guarantee that I will 1) read the post, 2) learn something and 3)try to apply what I've learned somewhere. Without naming names (and you know who you are), you are the reason many of us follow this forum.

 

I don't know the answer to Marc's question. I do know, however, that if those of you who I think of as educators stop posting because the forum has become stale, the rest of us will have lost a valuable resource.

 

I recall a thread earlier in the year where the discussion was about mentoring new photographers. I don't know how that is working out, but perhaps that idea can be applied to general mentoring - in effect, those of you who have high-level skills, extensive experience and a desire to share might post positions instead of questions. Create the opportunity for others to expand on a theme. And for the rest of us to learn. In a couple of the other forums, I regularly see a question that goes something like this: "How was this done?" I'd love to see some of you post your great photographs with an explanation as to how it was created, the challenges overcome, the strategy for creating the photograph both in the camera and post-processing. I know that the snapshots I take for my own enjoyment would be improved by such discussion.

I have been learning from PN for almost a year now. I understand the frustration of repetitive posts. I use the search option very frequently and i works great.

 

However, I am an amateur photographer who would like to do more with it, including weddings one day. so now I will feel paranoid asking questions, which I have always been told were important. the "which lens" question is easily answered through the search option...but every now and then new photographers will feel more confident asking the question directly. If I ever do a wedding and would like some feedback...I should what go somewhere else? Does no remember being new to it and just wanting some validation for what they have done?

 

If you want to offer separate forums specifically geared to those that have questions (although i thought that was what PN was all about) maybe that is what should happen.

 

I am a teacher and my students will ask me to repeat myself or ask the same question and I will always help them with a smile....even if it annoys me.

 

By the way i agree it is all about the light...but how many times do people hear good lenses how important good lenses are. after all don't the lenses capture the light? that might make it an important question

 

david

Hi Marc,

 

I thought about the same thing last week and I wrote a long post right now but decided to make it shorter and to the point instead.

 

1) we need a FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions to avoid repetitive questions.

 

2) a forum is good way to share experiences and discuss things but it's not an optimal media to store and categorize information and we need to recognize that.

 

3) In regards to point 2 above those that want to write an article explaining a certain subject needs to have a way to do that. Taking hours to put something together and then just post it here is a serious waste of time and resources. That information will be buried and dead in just a few days.

 

4) The search on pnet is nice but people needs help to be able to find information anyway. When you search for wedding related information you'll search the entire p.net and get thousands of hits. For instance if you just want to search just the wedding forum put this in your search request "Wedding and social event photography Forum".

 

5) There are plenty of websites, books, DVDs and other type of information floating around. It shouldn't be considered rude to just point to those sources of information, just like pointing people to a FAQ, when repetitive questions are being asked.

 

6) People needs to start learn how to be grateful for replies to their posts. A simple "thanks for all the replies guys" will go a long way in making the regular posters know that their help has been useful and was appreciated.

 

7) We need more moderators that can move unrelated posts to the proper forum.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

Peter brings up a good point on the website, books, dvds, etc. Do we have a section that

suggests good books or workshops regarding specific topics? I know we have a learning

section, but I mean something more in depth. I realize that probably won't help people

that may be on here looking for a "quick fix", but for those of us who realize that learning

this craft is forever ongoing, it would be useful. I once asked a question here about a good

lighting workshop on the west coast and I got a couple of responses, went to one - and it

changed my work. I'm very grateful for that and for the people who suggested it. I love it

when people suggest a reference to help answer a question b/c even if I wasn't at that

time needing help with that topic - chances are I'll check out the resource and learn

something from it.

I agree.... and I also think it gets repetitive, probably because all we members do

not get it at the first time, then we all not members since day one, and just

happen to think a lot get in the forum looking for the same answers plus do not

see "search as your friend" because do not feel that question relates close to

them, you can also add that a person likes "one to one" on their doubts and

needs confirmation or approval on ther needs, wants and so on.... (did this on

plural to include me too)

 

So probably if you feel the way you do, please feel free to grow up and I know

some will follow, with these I mean there are stages that come with time, you

are probably a pro and not worry about your equipment because you have that

covered by now, but here again this seems to be a "first timer wedding

photographer-enthusiast" so what we will do without the experienced souls

around here...

 

there are some forums for the wedding pro you can get into like:

http://www.digitalweddingforum.com/

http://www.pwpforums.com/

so give them a try...

I look at stuff that interests me and reply to even fewer, say about 1:12 ratio. Can't be bothered most of the time.

this is weird...i was just thinking "where's marc" and "where's Anne Almasy" and others....and thinking they are probably bored w/ this place lately and know some things have happened on here...that may of drove some away. and then i open pnet today and here is this post. also i have been wanting to e-mail you personally marc because you were so sweet to ask me if i got a certain question about (raw files) answered not too long ago but i was so overwhelmed i never responded and i have this on going list in my head of things i need to do and one was e-mailing you to thank you.....anyway thank you and - i was still confused about that question.

 

anyway - it seems if they would make a certain section for web critiques that would be helpful. and maybe another for just equipment.....

 

on that note i have a question about light i want to go ask....

I got it....make a special section...invite only...where the special few can discuss what they want and maybe one day the rest of us can be invited in.

 

If it is so bad...don't answer the posts...do what others say they do, pick and choose the ones you want to answer. not everyone is as experienced and as confident as others on here.

 

Like i said earlier previously....i always check the previous posts. however, due to the responses of some, who feel their time is wasted by responding to those who are trying to learn, myself and others feel intimidated because we are not at the level of expertise as others.

 

Thanx for making everyone feel welcome regardless of their knowledge.

Hmm.... I agree with what most of the others said. I too have not been here as much lately. I used to come to photo.net, and read every post in this forum. I read almost every answer. Lately I have been tiring of the same questions from people who did not do a search first. I now only read posts here and there, and only comment when I feel I really have something to say. I don't read every one any more. I skim for something that I might have an answer for, or something that peaks my interest. I don't even open the which lens questions any more. Part of me feels bad about that, because I was asking those questions at one time, but part of me thinks that if they research that they can find the answers.

 

One of the reasons I don't comment too much is because I am afraid if I say something, there will be a smart alec that will come along and slam me for what I said... because I have seen it happen to others here.

 

I too LOVED the turorial posts we did last year. Maybe we can start that again? Maybe that will be a use for someone? Than we can answer more direct questions. I feel that everyone can participate in these, whether it is old hat or new stuff. I think it is good to practice and work on things, whether they are old hat or new stuff.

It would also help if photo.net updated to a modern style of forum, that way we could have popular threads jump back to the top whenever they are active like on almost every other forum on the net. The garbage will sink unanswered and the important and interesting threads would be on the front page where they will have the attention they deserve. That is another reason I haven't bothered much here of late, if you try and start an interesting thread, or provoke discussion you have about three days before it will have sunk out of sight and be ignored. What's the point?

i know when i have a question about lens choice i did searches but i feel it doesn't always answer things paticular to me. sometimes you just want to hear what other's have to say pertaining to something more individual so a search doesn't always get it....it doesn't bother me at all seeing those posts i still learn a lot from them. really i don't feel any question is "bad" or "undeserving" of attention and help.....i answer as much as i can. how about we all start trying to bring up more invigorating topics...i can try - being a newbie and all.....i'm willing.....i would love to learn more about flash and i know there has been tutorials but it would be fun to see a live one now....something to be part of currently....

David T and Daniel Serrano, just to be clear, my intent wasn't to demean those with

questions about starting out. The idea isn't to discourage those posts as much as expand

the subject matter beyond what lens ... etc. BTW, I am a long time member of the DWF.

 

While there have been multiple posts about what lens, what flash, what camera .... there

are few about ... "Where's the light", How to I find the light? How do I use the light? How

did you light this? How did you meter that photo?" ... and so on. Basically, questions on

how to use the gear, not about buying it. If someone knew why they were doing

something, perhaps many of the gear questions would answer themselves.

 

I've taken on two folks in a mentoring exchange since that post some time ago. One is

quite adept technically, and could use some more advanced "creative" exchanges to get to

the next level ... the other is tying to learn the basics of "finding the light", so questions

about gear and it's use revolve around that quest.

 

So, yes, lenses are what gather the light, and cameras help capture it. But understanding

light is actually the basic question to ask, not what tools are needed to use it.

Perhaps splitting the forum into a BEGINNERS and PRO forum might be a good idea, similar to what the DWF did. That would hopefully weed out what many seem to be concerned with.

 

On the other hand, does a teacher quit teaching just because the subject and questions are repetitive? What happened to "there is no stupid question?"

 

Let's face it....the Wedding Photography biz is changing.....and there are a heckuva lot more people getting into it.

 

As an ARTIST what's your role on a forum like this? If you feel it is to mentor, then do so....if it is to sit and read, do it....

 

This forum is like any group....there are good people, and those whom you would rather not associate with....that's part of life.

 

What I get from all the forums I visit is a learning experience....Hansen Fong (no Gary), said "If you're looking for a teacher, you will find him/her. If you aren't you won't."

 

This is Oahu, a gathering place for like-minded artists to discuss the industry. If we can help others along the way...why not?

I can suggest that some of the intermediate and veteran photographers post some interesting topics rather than wait for newcomers and others to post. I am guilty of this, I'm afraid, but I usually don't post unless I really don't have a clue about the answer to a question or want varying opinions about a topic.

 

I agree with Ben about the popular topics needing to be labelled at least. If a post doesn't receive immediate replies, it basically sinks into oblivion. I also understand the problem with bandwidth, but there should be a way to actually see more wedding images, whether from newcomers or veterans. The images themselves usually spark some discussion. Maybe showcase a limited number of images from a wedding every month or something--by one of the regulars, or pick a newcomer. There would not have to be a reason for posting, although a reason or question would be good as well.

 

Photography as a craft is definitely suffering a little. I see a lot of newer folk wanting to press that shutter button, more for the instant gratification, self expression and plain FUN than for anything else. I am not criticizing, just stating an observation. From their viewpoint--why not indulge in instant gratification? I can see the allure.

This reminds me of the school administrators I heard saying, we tell the parents these things over and over and they just keep asking. Well, there's a new batch of parents every year! I consider myself as having graduated to another level when I start skipping more threads, but I've noticed someone always steps in to help the newbie. Kudos to those who have the patience. Perhaps we should all vow to answer at least one basic request each visit.

I think the forum did best when there were pojects. (fill flash, processions, etc...).

 

That is where the strength of experience from Marc and others shine and everyone wins in the end.

 

It forces the beginner/intermediate to actually use there gear in a real life or staged moment, work it out until you get a suitable image, and then submit an image for critique.

Marc thank you for this post! I joined photo.net to learn from the pros. I want to learn how to expand my creativity and produce captivating images. However, after reading hours of posts, some of the pros can be somewhat intimidating and sometimes rude. Many newbies are quickly criticized and some dismissed for even considering entering the field. (Thank goodness for the great responses from the true mentors and professionals.)

 

My primary purpose for subscribing is to be mentored by the vast knowledge of subscribers here (and at best, to find someone who I can shadow in DC).