Homeland Security and Railroad Photography

A freind of mine has informed me that within the last week, local

media (Flint, MI) was reporting that anyone photographing trains

could expect to be picked up and interrogated by the feds. The

rationale for this was that there had been a terrorist threat against

the railroads. Can anyone here confirm this policy, or worse yet been

picked-up? What gives with these people?

 

Bill

Can't say I'm shocked after the Spain incident.

Unfortunately this is a sign of the times that we now live in. In NYC if someone is taking pictures of a "sensitive site" they can be expected to be questioned by the NYPD.

"What gives with these people?"

 

I too like to photograph trains. However, I live about 2 miles from a rail yard. More than close enough to be killed in my bed by a cloud of poisonious gas.

 

Last week I sat at a train crossing and watched car after car with 200,000 pounds of LPG per car go by. They all had one thing in common; they were covered with Graffiti up to the height that a 13-year-old hoodlum could reach.

 

What ever "gives" they better give some more, because if a 13 year old hoodlum has unlimited access to tank cars of lpg and clorine, sooner or later one of the millions of people who want us dead will too, and I doubt if they will use the opertunity to write "god is great" in pink letters.

<I>What gives with these people?</I><P>

 

I think in situations like this it is important to have facts at hand. Such as, what did the

Flint media really report, was there really a terrorist threat against the railroads there, is

the engagement really being picked up and interrogated, or merely being questioned.<P>

 

I would hope that if any observed activity that seems odd or out of place would result in

some questions being asked.

All you say Neal is true. But I fail to see how stopping people from taking pictures of trains (from a public spot) as they go past would ensure any further safety. I understand that supposedly taking images of trains might help in the preparation of a terrorist attack however what are we going to do have all the millions of miles of track 100% patroled to prevent any pictures taken of a train?

According to the original post, it is not about <I>prohibiting the taking of pictures</I>, it

is about being questioned if found doing so. I think questioning is fair if the circumstances

seem odd or suspicious.

And as I said in my first post, without facts at hand, there's little than can be discussed in

response. Hysteria is easy...

Unfortunately, people seem to agree on one thing about bans similar to this: The only people this really affects are the photographers. As with the photography ban in NYC subways, I don't think this would really deter "terrorists" from getting the pictures they want.

 

Why would they purchase a relatively expensive and physically obvious SLR, when they can get what they want with a discreet, $50 cel phone?

 

I understand the reasoning for these bans, I just wish we could collectively come up with a more efficient and less restrictive alternative.

This issue has recently caused quite a stir amongst railway photographers in the UK. At some of the larger stations in London, heavy-handed security guards have been hassling photographers, and recently confiscated a film from the camera of a 15 year old boy. It has rightly caused a lot of anger. We've not had any rail-related terrorism in this country, but there is a lot of vandalism and anti-social behaviour going on.

 

I regularly photograph trains, but have never had any trouble as I usually pick quiet spots in rural areas to escape unwanted attention. A number of rail enthusiasts have pointed out that they are effectively unofficial security guards - I myself have pointed out suspicious activity to rail staff on several occasions. There are far bigger things to worry about than trainspotters with cameras.

i think people should ban people

no no no son, you got it all wrong...

first we need to get ...now listen to me when I'm talkin to you son... first we got to get the US of A outta North America...

Bill,

Is Michael Moore your next door neighbor?

As to what gives with these people? Which ones? The press? The rumormongers? The terrorists? The trespassers? The people that like trains?

 

The sky has been falling on photographers for a while now. Railroad photographers have had more sky fall on them than anyone else. Actually, they have a friend, who had a friend, that read an article, posted something about it on a forum, that somebody else then asked about, etc.

 

The foamers that seem to have the most problems are the ones that can't give up their penchant for trespassing. The railroads are cracking down on that as much as they can for simple liability and crime control reasons - they'd be doing it even if there weren't any over-arching security issues. That's not to say that there haven't been some incidents of undertrained, overzealous guards or even agencies trying to adapt to a new reality. Nor, as I had a discussion on a forum that was predominantly law enforcement and security folks the other day, is there not an added emphasis on security on the transportation systems. One LEO indicated that he'd been spending a lot of time going out and trying to follow up on reports of "suspicious persons" around rail facilities, grain elevators, fertilizer plants, bridges, etc.

 

Trains, subways, etc., have been targeted by various kinds of terrorists pretty much since the two first met. Not just in the US but as we've seen in Egypt, Russia, Spain, India, Japan, and France, etc. When you consider the vulnerability, the cargo carried, and the potential results (recent train wrecks and explosions in North Korea and Iran come to mind), it's easy to see why there is more attention being placed on all aspects of the transportation infrastructure.

 

But "they" aren't swooping down and carrying off train fans for interrogations. Should someone taking pictures of rail or other transportation facilities (or other potential targets) be surprised if they are asked for ID, etc? I wouldn't think so. Even if they aren't a problem themselves, they might be a witness to something, maybe could backfill info after an incident or as is perhaps likely, they may have a better insight into railroad or industry operations than the average street cop, they may well be a better observer and have something to offer.

Craig Gillette posted:

"The sky has been falling on photographers for a while now. Railroad photographers have had more sky fall on them than anyone else. Actually, they have a friend, who had a friend, that read an article, posted something about it on a forum, that somebody else then asked about, etc."

 

Craig, I'm sorry to have disturbed you. If you'll take another look at my post, I was seeking confirmation of what I'd been told. I thought I might be able to count on the freindly community of individuals here that share a common interest. I thought that I stood a better chance of getting a straight answer here than on "Alt.conspicacy/space aliens". It was my mistake not to realize that the community probably contained a few curmudgeons that don't have a small child to slap-around, looking for a chance to boost their ego in a relatively safe environment. I'm glad to have provided that opportunity for you, and again, I apologize for causing you to take important time away from advising the president on the Global War on Terror, in order to answer my question. May you develop an itchy red rash on the palm of your hand.

 

Bill

"one of the millions of people who want us dead " - Neil, what have you done THAT bad? :) Seriously, THIS is part of the hisreria. There are no millions of people who wants you (who?) dead. They all have bigger things to worry about in their everyday life.

 

If a photographer believes there are millions who want him/they dead, what does he expects from the security people whos job is to be suspicious.

I found this via an RSS feed blog the other day: WWW.KRAGES.COM/ThePhotographersRight.PDF and printed it out. It is a bit out of date already with the recent Supreme Court ruling that it is now a crime to refuse to provide your name...

Make that:

 

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

I'm a little disturbed by the term "Homeland Security" and frequent references by the federal government to the "heartland" because both terms were believed by conspiracy theorists - long before 9/11, long before the Oklahoma City bombing, long before the comparatively ineffectual attack on the World Trade Center - to be keywords attached to plans within the federal government to gradually undermine the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

One of the most vehement of the conspiracy theorists, William Cooper, claimed that the terms "homeland" and "heartland" were among the specific names given to geographic regions in the U.S. in FEMA contingency plans under conditions of martial law. Cooper and others believed that the act of forming contingency plans meant that martial law was an inevitability. Some believed that the federal government would simply be prepared to take advantage of situations to effect these strategies, while others believed the feds would actually provoke incidents and then "come to the rescue" with restrictive actions to reassure a frightened citizenry.

 

(Cooper, almost predictably, met a violent death in 2001 during a conflict with local law enforcement authoritities. While he tended to see conspiracies everywhere, which diluted his credibility, many of his observations were astute, if disjointed. I became interested - hopefully in an objective way - in conspiracy theorists and their pet issues several years ago when their radio programs seemed everywhere on American shortwave radio broadcasts. Coincidentally, mere ownership of a radio, especially a two-way radio, was banned in some countries during WWII and sometimes even drew suspicion in the U.S. In this new "war" it seems cameras are the inanimate object of choice among the paranoid.)

 

Others may read only a pastoral interpretation into the terms heartland and homeland, even when used in conjunction with plans to cope with terrorism. But when those plans breed an environment that imposes further restrictions on liberties, especially forms of communication, it does - or should - make one wonder whether there was at least a grain of truth buried in those conspiracy theories.

 

(Coincidentally, William Cooper was also a photographer and among those conspiracy theorists responsible for casting doubt upon the veracity of the first moon landing, believing that it was faked on a huge movie sound stage. He pointed to discrepancies he saw in lighting and shadows to support is position. Apparently others found this theory to be entertaining enough at the very least to form the basis for the movie "Capricorn One" co-starring O.J. Simpson, who just can't seem to avoid controversies and conspiracies.)

 

See you in the shadows...

BTW, anyone interested in as levelheaded an analysis of conspiracy theories as is likely to be found anywhere, please see the transcript of <a href=http://www.epwijnants-lectures.com/ct-seminar.html><u>this speech by Eric P. Wijnants</u></a> before the 2001 World Conspiracy Theory Seminar. While it's not entirely relevant even to this thread, other than to my previous remarks, let alone to photography in the specific, it is pertinent to concerns about compromises to our liberties in America.<p>

<p>

I won't comment on the credibility of Mr. Wijnants' speech or the elements therein. Judge for yourself. It is at worst troublesome and at best humorous - assuming your sense of humor leans toward the dark.

OK, would it make you feel better if I simply said that there is no apparent policy for "the feds" to "pick up and interrogate" "anyone" taking train pictures. The DHS Fact Sheet: Rail and Transit Security Initiatives can be found at http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=3377

 

The only people I know of who have had trouble with law enforcement while taking train pictures were trespassing. The FBI was involved in an investigation in 2002 of a group of fans near a tower in Texas, most were in an area which while trespassing, had been a well known fan hangout for many years.

 

Expecting law enforcement or security agencies to be interested in activities around transport facilities is reasonable - that the feds are going to interrogate anyone taking pictures of railroads is not.

The first real question one should ask, as usual in situations like this, is "if we ban photography of trains, will it make us safer". The answer is certainly "no", as has already been pointed out above; it may in fact make us LESS safe, by convincing a fairly large group of people who:

 

love trains, want to see them kept safe, know a lot about them, know what's normal and what's weird, watch for out-of-the-ordinary things a lot of the time (for free), and would be motivated to report strange behavior to the authorities (I'm talking about rail fans here)

 

that they will be treated like terrorists if they continue to engage in their hobby. So we have fewer knowledgeable eyeballs on the target.

 

Maybe we should ban translation of English materials into Arabic or vice-versa, and imprison all the translators. After all - imagine what could be translated! That would make us safer! Oh wait.......

Another thread whose premise is based on "a friend told me..." coupled with what a media

outlet reported, coupled with loaded language like "picked up and interrogated," rather

than "questioned." No facts, just speculation - that has somehow turned into a ban -

where that wasn't even mentioned in the first post.

 

Such hysteria.

 

Does anybody here feel the police should not be able to question someone who exhibits

(what appears to be) strange behavior around public transportation systems?

"Does anybody here feel the police should not be able to question someone who exhibits (what appears to be) strange behavior around public transportation systems?"

 

========================================

 

"Strange behavior" and "public transportation" are practically synonymous.

How do you figure, Lex? I've beeb sitting in an airport for the last hour looking for

strangeness (to photograph). Haven't seen any.

 

So are you saying if the police observe some unusual activity around transportation

infrastructure, questioning should not be allowed?

IHMO anyone found taking pictures of trains should be arrested immediately - for wasting film.