Good, cheap alternative to Zenitar 16?

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>Not meaning to get political here... I realize this is not the OT forum. However, for personal reasons, I've decided I can no long own/use Russian equipment. I now find the "MADE IN RUSSIA" logo on the side of my Zenitar 16/2.8 fisheye utterly offensive, and I intend to sell the thing. I'll also take down my web page reviewing the lens and not promote the lens anymore. (@#$%!...)</p>

<p>My question is this: What would be my best, low-cost, non-Russian alternative to this lens? I am perfectly OK with manual focus, especially with a fisheye. Setting focus by the focal scale has always worked fine for me. Stopping down is also fine. I don't shoot with my lenses wide open anyway. A lens that delivers well at f/8 or smaller would be dandy. Must be a diagonal fisheye, not a circular one. My biggest bugaboos are chromatic aberration and ghosting.</p>

<p>Also doesn't have to be a native EOS mount. I can adapt.</p>

<p>Suggestions?</p>

<p>Are you sure its Russian? Lots of "Russian" optics were made in Ukrane (Kiev).</p>

<p>I think there were/are a couple of major optics plants in the old USSR. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnogorskiy_Zavod" target="_blank">Krasnogorskiy Mechanicheskiy Zavod</a> in Krasnogorsk just outside of Moscow and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Arsenal_factory" target="_blank">Zavod Arsenal</a> in Kiev, Ukrane. Unfortunately (for you) I think the Zenitar lenses were made in the KMZ plant, though I'm not 100% sure that 100% of them were.</p>

<p>Alternatives? The Samyang 8mm is a circular fisheye, but that's more of an alternative to the Peleng (made in Belarus I think). Samyang lenses are made in South Korea.</p>

<p>Not sure about 180 diagonal full frame fisheyes. The Zenitar has always been the cheap one. Maybe look for a used Canon 15mm fisheye? I suppose there may be something coming out of China, though if you don't like Russian goods, Chinese goods aren't likely to be on your shopping list ) - which is much more of a problem for you since it's hard to find <em>any</em> electronics that aren't made in China or that don't use Chinese made components.</p>

<p>Cheapest alternative might be a used Sigma 15mm fisheye. I believe that all Sigma lenses are still made in Japan and not farmed out to China/Taiwan/Korea or other SE Asian countries.</p>

<p>Bob, irrespective of where it's actually made, it says "MADE IN RUSSIA." The lens offends me. Russia offends me. Photography is something I must feel good about. If I can't feel good about it, I can't do good work. I know this sounds a bit irrational, but I'm being quite sincere. All this has come to a head for me recently with the recent proliferation of information about this issue in Russia.</p>

<p>I felt the very same way when I was trying to find the right piano and saw a gorgeous Bechstein parlor-grand for sale for a very reasonable price. It had a magnificent tone and a very subtle action. It would have been a perfect fit for me, were it not for the fact it was made in Nazi Germany, and the beautifully refinished plate was emblazoned with all sorts of Nazi logos. Bad, bad, bad karma! I played several measures of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata on it but had to stop. I felt filthly playing it, and I felt the piano did not honor the music. It was utterly depressing.</p>

<p>So this is not an economic thing. It's not about boycotting Russia. It's about feeling good about my photography.</p>

<p>I was hoping there might be a Samyang alternative, but all I found was the 8mm. I suppose there's the Sigma...</p>

<p>Sarah,</p>

<p>Have you considered that the people who actually made your lens almost certainly didn't hold the same opinions as the Russian establishment? They were probably good people earning a crust.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, I know where you're coming from. If you're not happy with your gear it reflects in your work. Personally, I treat things like that as part of history and can live with it.</p>

<p>Personally, I'd just black out the "Made in Russia" logo, but that's just me. It's not like you are supporting the Russian government by owning it (though in a sense you did if you bought it new I guess).</p>

<p>The Peleng (Belarus) is a full frame circular fisheye. On an APS-C body it gives a decent 180 degree diagonal image if you do a little cropping. I think the Samyang 8mm is 180 degree diagonal on APS-C too.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Jamie, the sad thing is that the broad majority of Russian people DO seem to hold the same opinions as the government. Moreover, since the passage of anti-LGBT legislation in Russia (banning LGBT 'propaganda,' protests, organizations, adoption), there's been quite a rise in anti-LGBT hate crimes.</p>

<p>Really, let's not get into politics. Let's just take it as read that Sarah has moral objections and leave it at that, or the moderator's axe may have to fall....</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Thanks, Bob... The APS-C crop is a possibility, but I'd prefer a FF diag (15/16). I'm not finding very informative reviews so far on the Sigma, but I'm continuing to look</p>

<p>Perhaps there's something from the Nikon or Pentax universe? It's an easy fit. Maybe some weird Spirotone or Soligor, better-than-one-would-think wonder from the 70's?</p>

<p>Well, I thought I found a good review on the sigma, but still searching...</p>

 

<p>Your best bet is a search on Ebay for "fisheye lens". You'll get dozens of the cheap "clip on" and "screw on" adapters etc., but if there is some cheap and weird full frame fisheye out there, you'll probably find it on eBay.</p>

<p>I'm not aware of any full frame fisheyes from Kiron, Cambron, Spirotone, Soligor, Sears, Kalimar or the myriad of other forgotten generic brands. There are a few rectilinear super wides, not not fisheyes.</p>

<p>You might (or might not) want to look at Lensbaby. They have a 12mm fisheye, but it's not full frame coverage. It's almost full frame on APS-C, but you'll need to crop to remove the dark corners.</p>

<p>The bad news (for you) is that the Zenitar is the best cheap lens for what you want to do.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The bad news (for you) is that the Zenitar is the best cheap lens for what you want to do.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yeah, I know... :-(</p>

<p>I've been looking at some sample images from the Sigma, and I see some, but not all, images have a lot of CA. Perhaps copy-to-copy variation? Does anyone know whether this lens' CA cleans up well in DPP? I know if it's axial CA, forget it!</p>

<p>Sarah, I went with the Sigma 15 f/2.8 EX the version before the EX DG. I'll admit I got it for my D700 but I did get a great deal on a LN lens on eBay. Think I paid $300. What is the monetary amount you want to spend? BTW, it's a sharp lens and a few reviews rate it quite well which has been my experience.</p>

<p>FWIW - Apparently KEH has that Sigma 15 for $359 in EX condition. </p>

<p>Having said my say, I will point out that the ancient auxiliary Spiratone fish eye lens (see http://www.photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00WndY ) is pretty decent stopped down.</p>

<p>Not as cheap, but the Tokina 10-17 fisheye zoom might be an option. It's designed to work with APS-C sensors, but from 15-17mm it fills the frame on full frame cameras. The edges are somewhat soft on the full frame, but stopping down helps quite a bit. I use it on both formats with good results.</p>

 

<p>JW, that's not a bad price. Looks promising!</p>

<p>Mark, what I'm gathering is that the sigma works well, and the CA is reigned in, when stopped down. I could probably go the $350 for the exc lens from keh. $500-600 for a new one would be a stretch for my budget.</p>

<p>JDM, I don't expect everyone to understand my motives. I don't think anyone would avoid US-made anything because we once had slavery. Times change. But some items simply take on a negative karma for me. Russian human rights abuses are simply too in-the-moment (and obviously personal) for me.</p>

<p>I've considered "fixing" my Zenitar. Some people will jokingly make a Canon lens "sharper" by putting a red pinstripe around it. I'm considering rainbow-pinstriping my Zenitar's little sunshade, thereby obscuring the offending "MADE IN RUSSIA" (which is really quite big, and "in your face" -- not the more demure "Made in Japan" stamped on a Japanese camera or lens). However, the Sigma from keh sounds promising. I think it will definitely be one of the two. If I end up making a special LGBT rainbow edition Zenitar 16, I'll post a pic of it. However, for now, I think I'll just stew over it for a while.</p>

<p>Thanks for exploring this oddball issue with me!</p>

<p>What about the vintage Sigma Filtermatic 16mm f2.8 (manual focus vintage lens) ?<br>

http://www.pentaxforums.com/userreviews/sigma-16mm-f2-8-filtermatic-fisheye.html</p>

<p>I have the Sigma 15mm EX. It's excellent. AF isn't much good, but with a fisheye I find it best to focus with Live View anyway. I might get the Canon fisheye zoom one day when I am feeling rich.</p><div></div>

<p>Dennis, thanks! That's more what I was looking for! I'll keep my eye out for that one. (Actually I'm looking at one right now.)</p>

<p>Robin, Thanks for the sample. I wouldn't expect AF to be much of anything with a fisheye -- enormous depth of field, tiny rear element. The only really appealing thing to me about a modern Sigma would be the automatic aperture. Otherwise I'd probably be focusing manually, either with liveview (when I eventually have a FF camera that does liveview) or with the focusing scale.</p>

<p>Jim, thanks for the Tokina recommendation too. It sounds interesting, and I'll research it.</p>

<p>Sarah, perhaps have a rainbow painted on the lens by the made in Russia stamp , photograph it and publish it everywhere. This way the lens becomes a symbol demanding change specifically aimed at Russia. Change happens by people speaking out and standing up. This would send a more powerful message and show your support tor the LGBTQ community in Russia.</p>

<p>Mark, I like your thinking! A rainbow covering up the "MADE IN RUSSIA" would lose all context. A rainbow beside/around it would carry a message. Maybe I could add my own verbiage: "Liberated Edition." ;-)</p>

<p>Nikon 16mm f2.8 or 16mm f3.5, about $300 to $450 depending on condition/age. Use with cheap adapters from China.</p>

<p>Sarah, don't stop there, use the lens for photographing LGBT events and people too and post those images with your article about this Russian lens rainbow symbol protest for change of Russian law and LGBT rights, this could gain momentum with support from the LGBT community in the free world and no doubt the attention could spread into Russia. It may have potential if a LGBT grass roots movement got behind it and the media was made aware of the story and helped. You have the potential to cause a stir if you are resourceful and the stars align.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Sarah, don't stop there</p>

</blockquote>

<p>All excellent thoughts, Mark. However, you're asking a tired veteran to go back to war. I spent 4 years of my life hard at work doing stuff like this, and I suffered some enormous personal losses because of it. Oddly, my activism with regard to international LGBT human rights abuses landed me on a Congressional watch list of some sort. International stuff is surprisingly sticky.</p>

<p>I'm afraid the most fundamental problem would be getting any sort of message into Russia. Russia might as well be N. Korea with regard to LBGT issues. There is a new iron curtain with regard to pro-LGBT information/messages because of the new propaganda law. Even if the message could be delivered, it would fall upon a very unsympathetic audience. </p>

<p>Sadly, this is a battle the Russian LBGT community must fight for itself. I can show solidarity with the Russian LGBT community to lend moral support to their cause, but to do it in any sort of "big" way would cost me too much and yield too little. The tide of international opinion is already pretty strongly against Russia's human rights abuses, and our own President is critical himself. To push my own government to push harder at the Russian government would be the sort of infraction that got me in some trouble (the watch list) in the first place. It all has to do with definitions for suspected terrorists (trying to influence foreign policy, etc.). I know that sounds stupid, but ALL of this is pretty stupid stuff.</p>

<p>But I certainly did think (quite a lot) about your idea. At least a few themes come to mind: Russia has sent me a lens through which I can show them the outside/real world. Russian views, through the lens, are quite distorted and bizarre, etc. But alas, the final stumbling block is penetrating the Russian Internet with content that violates their laws and their backward social views. I just don't think it can happen. </p>

<p>All I can do (and will do) is to make my lens a symbol of anti-LGBT oppression domestically. Clearly this has become a niche lens in my collection. </p>

<p><img src="http://www.graphic-fusion.com/equalitymarch0062.jpg" alt="" width="700" height="467" /><br>

... taken with my Zenitar on a 40D.</p>