Flat or Grey Negatives...?

Hello,

 

I have searched the site here and I think I found some reasonable

answers to my questions; I just wanted to verify.

 

I am a student photographer and I'm having issues with my

negatives. It started out with bad negatives due to the loading of

the film onto the reels. I now use Hewes brand and have no problems

with that. Then I get these negatives that, to me, seem to have

really great detail in them but they are a really grey color.

 

I'm just not sure what to do. I use Ilford Hp5 400 and I set the

ISO to 200. The film was shot in daylight with decent lighting and

great cloud coverage. I have a Pentax V spot meter that I believe

to be calibrated correctly and I use that for my meter readings...

 

I don't want to bother anyone with a novel of my problems but I'm

just confused I guess. Is a "grey" negative due to exposure

problems, developing issues, or perhaps a combination?

 

I appreciate any help and/or suggestions

 

-Michael-

You may be either underexposing or under developing. What developer and

time are you using. Is the developer fresh. When you use the spotmeter what

method do you use for determining exposure. That should help in

troubleshooting your problem.

A Grey negative could be and most likely is under fixed or washed. ilford and agfa film has a grey anti halation coat where as Kodak seems to like that pink color.

Hi Andrew,

 

I use the schools stock of D-76, I believe, and I run it through for Ilfords standard 11 minutes at 68 degrees.

 

The spot meter is a new thing for me as I just got it about a month ago so I'm still trying to master it. I look through the lens and put the object in the 1 degree circle and then activate the meter. I use this number and match it up to the ring of combinations on the meter. This meter apparently was calibrated for use with the Zone System and I try to follow along with it the best I can. I take the number, say 12, and line that up with the zone V scale on the meter and either move it up or down depending on which zone I'm looking to place it in.

 

I thought that I was doing it correctly because it seems that the negatives are full of detail...just no contrast. The negatives and the contact sheets have no whites or blacks just a light to dark grey tone.

Do you have a set of contrast filters?

I would try a 3 or 3 1/2 and see if it improves the image.

I thought you meant the negitives where grey but I thnk now you mean it is the prints that are grey muddy lacking contrast. If it's the prints it is fairly easily fixed ussally. Could be fogged paper also that owers contrast quick.

Are you sure that your contact sheets are properly exposed? Did you check the minimum time to get black through the base plus fog?

There could be many answers to your problem; 1 or 2 reasons, or all of the above. I can only add that I think you should try solving one problem at a time, not several.

Fellows read the post again; he mentions "negatives" five times! I have been having the same problem; my exposures have beeen too long. My negs are too dark. If I get this worked out then my dev times and dilutions are next. It is something that we must all deal with to get the right look that we want. On a bright day I use a polarizer to cut back on the blown out highlights. If you are having trouble metering use a gray card. I will use my sekonic to meter the shadows and the highlights, and depending on the zone I want or the detail that I value, to compromise the average. I have been burning HP5 and dev in D76. I grant you that I have a long way to go before I sleep!

There are only a few reasons why you are not getting blacks on your negs(highlights) and

it is not your meter if you are shooting at 200 iso and not placing your highlights on zone

v or less. Some of your problem could be under agitation--are you agitating the

developer as recommended. under agitation will tend to under develop the highlights,

darks on the negative. Also, exhausted developer or the wrong dilution-too much

dilution, will also affect the denser areas of the negative more than the less dense. If you

aren't getting any clear film, which should appear somewhere in a normal scene, you

either aren't clearing the film-fixer and/or washing long enough-as suggested before or

your film is fogged.

 

Try this, meter a large flat wall, shoot one frame at the zone V value, shoot one frame

under exposed from this value by 5 stops and one over exposed by 5 stops and develop.

if you don't have black dense film on the overexposure, you aren't getting enough

developer on the film and if not clear on the underexposure, then you either have fogged

film or you aren't clearing it all the way. A good idea would be to compare the zone V

exposure to another meter-in camera or whatever-if you aren't within a stop between

meters, there is probably something wrong with the meter. If you use the spot meter on a

flat wall at zone V, that is what an in camera meter will also read(zone V is the standard

average meter reading) Different meters will give different readings depending on how

they read the light and whether they have the old "k" factor built in, but you should be

within 1 stop over a variety of subjects-especially large flat subjects--meter a wall, grass,

open sky etc.

Thanks for all of the replies...I really appreciate it.

 

I do try my best to obtain maximum black when making my contact sheets and no, it's not the paper that I'm worried about...it's the negatives. To print these negatives I end up having to use only a few seconds (3-4 sec)with the enlarger opened all the way up and using a 3 1/2+ contrast filter and they still look bad.

 

When metering a wall with both my camera's meter and my spot meter (pentax v) they both come up with the same exposure readings...or fairly close. I'm still trying to figure the spot meter out. If it's in between numbers...for example- 12 ] ] 13 -if the meter reads at one of the marks in between the 12 and the 13 I just pick the exposure reading it's closest to? Maybe I'm just using the meter wrong...?

 

The only reason I rated my film at iso 200 is because I tried to do film speed tests to find my true speed and I couldn't figure out how to do them correctly. I read that for "most" people the true film speed occurs at about half of what it's rated from the label. I know...I'm comic relief right?

 

I just want to learn the most that I can and get on the right road to the perfect exposure.

 

I appreciate the replies and I hope I can continue to learn from all of you...Thank you

 

-Michael-

I was getting this same problem, so I tested my fixer and found that my fixer had expired. I used a few drops of that liquid that I can't remember the name of, it caused a milky swirl, so I got rid of it.

 

I started to have to expose my negs at around 60 seconds just to get anything to print. The negs got so muddy. I mixed new fixer and the problem went away.

Lots of variables. It is time to shoot some well-controlled film tests with fresh chemicals, etc. Good luck.

You say you have to have the enlarger opened right up and at 3-4 seconds exposure time? Why do you open the lens up? Normally one works with the lens closed own 2-3 stops. I use HP5, rating it at 160 ASA. I aim for a rather flat neg to reduce contrast but if your negs are really flat then I'd suggest increased development time such that you can print a full range of tones at grade 2-2.5.

 

When you develop, what agitation pattern do you use?

Time to rule out variables. Is anyone else using the school's darkroom? Are they having the same problem? If the answer is no, then most likely the chemicals are okay. The times you mention sound right. Is it possible you are fogging the film when you load it in the reel? It must be done if complete darkness, w/o the safe light on. Shoot a test roll and use a gray card to determine exposure. Compare that value to what you would get using your spotmeter. If they don't agree you may be overexposing resulting in very dense shadows, and gray highlights.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll solve this soon.

Have you considered using the "Sunny 16" rule to eliminate the exposure variable? I mean after you've done all the spot meter readings, figured the zones, determined your exposre, then just stepping back and asking yourself "is this somewhere close to 1/250th at f16?" (or f11 is it's overcast). I don't mean to sound insulting but sometime we get so entangled in complex tools that we tend to overlook some basic guidelines.

Michael,

 

Are you using "community" chemistry at your school's lab; or are you bringing along your own? Chemistry is cheap: Bring your own and see if that solves the problem.

Michael, don't sweat the printing thing right now, solve the negative problem first, but for

reference, you really want enlarging times of 15-20 seconds at least so when you need to

burn or dodge, you have time to do it and get even results.

 

Pentax spot meters read in 1/3 stop increments, so as you indicated, you are just looking

to get the closest exposure you can with the limits of shutter and aperture adjustment on

the camera. Rating film at 1/2 nominal speed is generally a rule of thumb for darkroom

work-gives better shadow and the highlights will generally still hold well.

 

Good advice about your own chemistry and seeing if others are having the same problem.

You could also expose a roll and take to your local pro lab and have them develop it--just

develop, no contact, and see if the film looks any different.

 

A friend of mine, a pro, is having similar results with kodaks 400cn, a c-41 b/w neg film.

He did initial tests and got a full neg and now is getting almost what you describe. He

hasn't determined if it is a bad batch of film, the lab's development or? You start to

wonder if we aren't being "pushed" to go digital!

 

Also, using a spot meter to its best advantage, you should be reading the high values and

the low values and placing your exposure to best accomodate these values--to be sure

you hold the one that is most important to the scene. These reading would also tell you if

you should have a black and a clear area on the negative.

Ok, after I commented last time, I was thinking about this--so here is another thing to

throw in the mix. Did you take the film on an airplane and either have it in your baggage

or let it go thru gate security in other countries? If not, is this film bought in US at a

reputable dealer and not gray market film?

 

Baggage x-ray will destroy your film and who knows how gray market film gets here.

Also, some countries have higher output on their gate x-ray units. Just a thought.

 

Oh yea, has the film expired and has it been stored around heat?

 

If yes to anything here, buy a new role and use and process it immediately to see your

results.

When you say decent light and great cloud coverage do you mean soft and diffused light because of the cloudy weather. That would give you softer negs and if the subject was lacking a full range of tones you could get negs that look rather grey. Negs should not look as contrasty as a print so a neg should not look like a B&W print but in negative it should look softer.

Sorry I havn't responded in a few days...It's been busy around here.

 

I'll try to respond to as much as I can to help understand my situation:

 

I use a community darkroom that is taken care of pretty well and as far as I know the chemicals are changed on a consistant basis

 

I havn't gone through any xray machines lately

 

I'm not sure what is meant by difused lighting...It was a cloudy day, meaning the clouds were scattered throughout the sky and when the sun would shine through them it cast an even light on everything.

 

I didn't mention that i'm using a bulk film loader for the first time as well. I am sure that film was loaded properly though, so I'm not really considering that as a problem...

 

Do you guys think that by finding my personal film speed and developing times would correct much of the problems I see? I'm a big believer in the zone system and I want to be able to produce great negatives. Are there any true tests that I could succesfully complete and come to a true film speed and developing times? I know that once I learn how to properly expose the film the printing will be much easier, and perhaps may be enjoyable for once...

 

I'm sorry that I seem so lost and confused...I just want to learn as much as I can and apply that knowledge the best I can.

 

Thanks again for your time and responses.

-Michael-

I recommend "The Practical Zone System..."by Chris Johnson, which has a

good explaination on how to determine your personal film speed for your

equipment. I should be available in a local library.

The bulk loading of film adds another variable. Try a fresh roll. Was the scene

very low in contrast? Were all the shots taken in the same light?

hi, im new in this forum and not so used to write in english. Im from argentina. i have the same problem of grey negatives but the fog is not only over the image but also over the unexpossed film. Ive tried with longer fixer times and washing too but i got nothing. may be the developer that is not good? thanks.. ciao