Filters that might darken the sky without also diminishing shadow detail?

<p>After experimenting with no filters, and with a yellow, I was wondering if there is something better for this purpose. I'm shooting landscapes with Kodak BW400CN, and my only complaint is that often, when shooting near dusk, skies seem to appear too light. I've searched on this, but nothing seems to specifically apply. To perhaps makes this more clear, when shooting say, a farm-scape, the buildings and the foreground field will appear appropriate to reality, but the evening sky seems to appear slightly to moderately too bright in relation to everything else... Might there be a filter that will darken the sky a bit, perhaps add some delineation to any clouds, yet also not turn darker areas, such as the buildings in the lower parts of the image, to near black?</p>

<p>You might try a polarizer.</p>

<p>These are sensitive to the direction of the light, being most effective when the camera is pointed at 90° to the light source.</p>

<p>Obviously if you're shooting a sunset the polarizer won't work.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

 

<p>Thanks Leigh. (I'm actually an experienced color photographer, but have only been seriously interested in B&W for the last few years; I'm not sure if I placed this in the proper classification, but it didn't seem to fit others.)</p>

<p>I might well experiment with your suggestion next time out. But i'm thinking of a recent image, especially, where the sun was almost down and it was pretty much in front of me where a polarizer wouldn't be very effective, of course. And in another, an image of the ruins of a building, well into dusk... In both, the sky seemed too bright.</p>

<p>Hi Jeff,</p>

<p>Those situations are very difficult. I can't suggest any reasonable solution.</p>

<p>The 'standard' filter for enhancing clouds is yellow (negative blue), but you said you already tried that.<br>

It really won't work at dusk anyway because the skylight has so much yellow in it already.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

 

<p>Hi Leigh,</p>

<p>I kind of think you may have really clarified the problem for me with your last sentence... I hadn't thought of that. I'm now thinking that perhaps by using the yellow filter, I am actually making this problem worse at dusk. If so, thanks for clarifying that.</p>

<p>I was reading about red filters today, in case you or someone else might be familiar with them. It seems that they darken the sky, but I'm afraid that one of them might also ruin darker foreground detail by the increased contrast..</p>

<p>Though it's used more with color than B&W, a graduated neutral density filter should work, as long as you have a reasonably straight horizon line.</p>

<p>One obvious problem that occurs to me about a red filter in low light is the filter factor -- if I recall correctly, an #25 filter has a factor around 2.5 stops and a #29 takes three stops. If you're starting with low light, that could lead to some pretty long exposure times.</p>

<p>The shadows tend to be on the bluish side, so a red #25A dims them down quite a bit. A good GND might help.</p>

<p>It does seem, as Jerry Coffin suggested, that a ND grad should help.</p>

<p>It depends to some degree on the color of the shadowed areas. If it is organic and green, a green filter might be worth trying (red would just worsen the situation, as it also does with blue casts in shadows (as one sees in shadoiws on snow or sand). if you have a digital camera handy, put it into B&W mode and try the green, orange, red and yellow filters. Otherwise, try these different filters with your film camera and check the shadow areas of your developed negatives for detail. A graduated neutral density filter should also be tried and, as suggested above, may be the best solution for your particular problem of low sun or dusk photography.</p>

<p>Try an orange filter. It darkens blue skies without excessively darkening most foliage. That's why I prefer it to red, which will darken most foliage significantly.</p>

<p>You can also try graduated neutral or color density filters.</p>

<p>If I understand your question correctly, the evening sky have hues of Yellow and Red. So, with yellow or red filter you are filtering those colours and resulting in white. <br>

You can try blue filter(during dusk) and see whether you get what you want. Good luck.</p>

<p>Thanks for all of the excellent suggestions! Sorry that I could not get back here until now. They all make sense, but I'm afraid that I don't have a digital camera, or the filters that were mentioned, to easily experiment.</p>

<p>If I'm going to buy one, I'm intrigued with Lex's idea for orange, but upon looking this up within B&W's offerings, they seem to have only "orange-yellow", and "orange-red"... I'm familiar with B&W, and trust them, and would like to buy that brand so I'm hoping you can give some additional clarification in terms of the best orange to get (even if another brand). Baachitraka's suggestion sounds interesting too, and I wondered if others might have some practical experience with blue filters during situation like I've described around dusk? (winter fields (with or w/out snow), barns, woods, sky)</p>

<p>I'm sure the graduated ND filter could very well be one way to go, too, as many of you suggested. It would be nice though, if one of the colored ones would suffice for the sake of simplicity, and for some reason, I've always been reluctant to get a Grad. ND filter; using one just seemed to be too fiddly in terms of nature seldom cooperating, at least in my area, with fairly straight horizons. But of course, I've seen many examples of people using them very well, so maybe it's time to seriously consider getting one? But I'd love it if just a couple of colored filters would fulfill my needs well. Please keep any ideas/suggestions coming! Thanks!</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I have a couple of these filters but don't use them near enough to speak authoritatively on them. However, I can post a couple of examples. Unfortunately, they are on different films, so some of the differences spectral sensitivity are due to that. Note that none of the skies in any of the shots were that deep blue sky that you get on ultra clear days. They were all on days with mostly clear skies with some clouds, and a bit of that white hazy look on the horizon. That being said, here we go.</p>

<p>The first two examples are on Plus-X and a B+W 022 filter (medium yellow). Both examples have some sky and clouds in them, as well as vegetation. One has a person so you can see what skin tones look like too.</p>

<p>

<p>Next up is an B+W 041 (orange red) on T-Max 400. Note that this shot was probably a bit underexposed (1/2 stop or so) - I think I miscalculated the filter factor and set the wrong ISO on my handheld meter. There's some trees and sky in the background.</p>

<p>

<p>Last up is the same filter on Tri-X. No vegetation in the shot, but some people, sand, and some sky. The scan is a bit more contrasty than it needs to be, by choice - there's reasonable shadow detail in the pants on the negative. I did a print of this on fiber and it came out great.</p>

<p>

<p>Last up is a shot on Plus-X. I have in my notes that I used the 022 filter, but I have a sneaking suspicion I used the 041 instead, since the sky is much darker. On the other hand, the lens I was using has a pretty crazy vignette (built in GND!), and the sky was a deep blue as you went further up on the horizon, so maybe I was using the 022. Either way, it was one of the two, 022 or 041. Plenty of skin tones in the foreground on this one :)</p>

<p>

<p>Thanks very much, Tim! Really interesting, especially as the yellow filter does seem clearly effective at darkening the sky, at least under the right conditions. I like those last skin tones, too! :)<br /> <br />Just thinking about all this, and doing some more reading, I'm kind of leaning towards the orange-yellow B&W filter... Does this make any sense to you, or to others?</p>

<p>I use a grad ND, a grad red, or a polariser singly or in combination to match an over-bright sky with a shadowed foreground. When making the final photograph under the enlarger some judicious burning-in of the sky combined with careful dodging of the foreground can give the photograph extra tonal unity. Here is an example:<img src="http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4090/5191353290_6fe34998fc_z.jpg" alt="" width="640" height="483" /></p>

 

<h1 id="title_div5191353290" >Noosa Harbour, Winter Sunset</h1>

 

<p id="yui_3_4_0_3_1328146925087_1130">Gelatin-silver photograph on Fomabrom Variant 111 VC FB, image area 16.3cm x 21.4cm, from a Tmax 100 negative exposed in a Mamiya RB67 camera fitted with a 50mm f4.5 lens and grad red filter.</p>

 

 

<p>Really gorgeous image, Maris! Especially the sky area!</p>

<p>Hi Jeff,<br /><br />If you look at this Winter Sunset picture, yoy will see that the sky is OK but there is no details in shadow area. It's exactly your problem "Filters that might darken the sky without also diminishing shadow detail?".<br />First, you are using a chromogenic film which does not behave exactly as ortho-panchromatic films. Second, apart from Graduated ND filters, you will have shadow detail problem with most of B&W filters. When I shooted chromogenic B&W film, I used to use 81 filters to darken the sky a bit. I have 81A, 81B and 81C filters and depending on the sky color, I use one of them. For instance, when the sun is on my back, the sky is very blue so I use the lighter 81A. When the sun is 45°, the sky is pale blue, I use a 81C. They do not block shadow detail. Remenber to apply the filter correction factor AFTER your meter reading. You have to meter the scene without the filter then screw the filter in and apply the correction factor. The built-in meter cell do not behave like the film. It's the only way to have a good shadow area on your negs.</p>

<p>You mentioned also that you are shooting with the sun low in the sky, if the sun in in your frame then you are talking about a huge amount of range you're trying to capture. <br>

Your film simply can't handle that much, the suggestions for grad ND and grad red (above) are your best bets in my opinion. <br>

handle the difference in range as much as you can and dodge and burn like hell. :)</p>

<p>I would go for a yellow-orange (orange-red if for Acros) and would nevertheless experiment with a polarizer on top of the y-o filter - and with some stringent shading of the setup whenever possible! Having a green filter at hand is helpfull, too, in quite a few situations. Also, overexposure by about 1 stop (on top of a tried-and-true-for-that-film correction factor for the filter) may be a suitable 'technique' giving your negatives more shadow detail while, most of the times, the sky will remain manageable for printing.<br>

That's my 2 cents about doing 'classic landscapes'. ... I cannot recall when I last used my red filters, actually.</p>

<p>Wow, thanks for this additional info! I've read everything a couple of times, and will be thinking about all that you've mentioned. And of course, any additional input is most welcome!</p>