Daylight Tank Vs. Trays Vs. Hangers for 4X5

Hear is the problem I am having. I am shooting a lot of 4x5 for a

project I am doing, and I can't seem to get the consistent results I

want. I started off tray developing and always scratch up my

negatives. I have been using one of those old FR Daylight tanks for

the past 3 years. I have done OK with it just that it can be very

hard to get consistent development. I see those old Stainless Steel

hangers around all the time so I was thinking that might be worth a

shot. So hear are my basic questions for every one

 

1)has any one used those hangers in tanks and what was your

experience with them?

2) Dose any one have any ideas how to get more even and consistent

development out of my daylight tank, or recommend another daylight

tank they use?

3) Would developing times for films in hangers increase or decrease

compared to tray or daylight tank processing?

 

Thank you all very much

 

Dave

I've been doing 4x5 for about two months now. I tray develop and find for me that 8x10 trays work quite well, better than 5x7. I keep the negatives in the lower left corner of the tray and aggitate with my right hand.

 

I've done some zone system testing recently and found noticable scratches only on one in twenty or so negs. That's one more than I'd like but I can live with it. Not sure if your work can allow for that. I found that many of my scratches were coming from the wash where the negs were bouncing around a little in a too large tray. I've since seperated the negs in 5x7 trays for washing and the scratch problem dropped dramatically. I also found that processing emulsion side down made a big difference. I think that's not standard procedure, but I read it somewhere and it works for me.

 

I'll be interested to hear answers to your question since I'd consider any approach. However, I hope in the mean time that the washing or emulsion suggestion helps you in some way.

 

mac

Hello David,

you could try a Jobo CPE-2plus + Lift and the 2523 Tank with the 4x5" reels. Very comfortable, safes a lot of chemicals, absolute consistant results. They are often offered at ebay.

Best regards

Robert

David,

 

I've used all 3 plus a few other methods, and as far as the 3 listed above, if you can get the hang of tray processing, that will be your best solution. I've always had surge problems with the daylight one, and the stainless hangers can also cause it as well, unless you take off the top clip, but that can cause the film to pull out if you don't be careful. The scratch thing isn't that hard to overcome, if you take your time to pull them out fully from the underside, then gently push them straight down on the stack. A good way to figure out your system is to get some film and practice with the lights on.

 

As far as time, tray processing will reduce the time a little because of the consistant agitation.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Alexis

 

www.alexisneel.com

I agree with Alexis. I scratched quite a few 4x5's when I started but now I can process 4 in an 8x10 tray without a scratch. just be gentle and practice practice practice.

Maybe others have more exacting standards than myself, but I've been quite happy with the results I get from developing my 4x5" in a Jobo 2500 daylight tank manually. It takes ALOT of chemicals compared to a processor (1500ml vs 300ml) but I've not noticed any problems with uneven development or bromide drag. Scratches never happen, and I can process six sheets at a go, something I would imagine would either be beyond my dexterity or require quite a bit of practice to achieve in a tray.

I use a Jobo 1500 and am very happy with results. Out of the box, I had a density shift on the film edge, but leveling the unit resolved it. Since then very uniform, very easy. I bought it used for a good price, and do both B&W and E6 in 4x5.

 

Pete

If you want consistent even development without scratches, using a daylight tank, it's hard to beat the Jobo system, especially with the 3010 tanks. I've never had a single sheet of film show anything other than perfectly consistent edge-to-edge even developement over thousands of sheets processed in my 3010 with a CPP-2.

 

Yes, I know it isn't the cheapest thing in the world, but you can often find the Jobo units and the tanks on the used market.

 

And it depends on your priorities. Me, I've got a piece-of-junk 1995 Ford in the driveway that has finally quit raining parts on the inside (I think it ran out), while I have a Jobo CPP-2 in the darkroom. YMMV of course ;-)

If you want to keep the FR tank the only people I know who are happy with them use several. Fill each with one chemical. Then move the film between the tanks. Something like that the whole thing sounds like a hassle and costs more then getting a Jobo tank. So my eyes glaze over.

 

The Jobo 2551 or one of the bigger models. At least one 2509N reel. An electric thing to turn the drum. Beseler. Unicolor. Doesn't matter. Just try and get one that switches direction.

The FR film holder works great if you lift it and reinsert it to agitate, then use other tanks for stop and fix, just like you'd do with hangers. If you use the FR holder or SS hangers move them slowly and drain the solutions off one corner. Billions of sheets of film have been developed on SS hangers for many, many years with no problem. With used ones so cheap there's no reason to try something else.

If you have a lot of film to develop, hangers are the way to go. Read any old Kodak film and processing books for the proper technique. Basically, you lift them out of the solution, tilt ninety degrees, and put them back in. Alternate the direction of tilt, and move them fairly slowly to avoid density variations around the circulation holes. Don't use a developer that only needs a few minutes, choose something that works in eight or more minutes.

Try HP Marketing's "Combi Tank". I use it for 4 x 5 cut film development. It develops up to 6 negs at a time.

Regarding surge marks when developing with stainless steel hangers, I have to disagree with a few of the responses given above. I've found that the slower the agitation, the more likely you are to get surge marks. Instead, increase the dilution of the developer and increase agitation. I lift-tilt-dip 8 times per minute (takes about 15 seconds). Once I moved to this more vigorous agitation schedule, I no longer get surge marks.

 

This works for me, but as with everything, your mileage may vary.

When buying stainless hangers, beware of the ones with a bar

all the way across the top if the film, with holes to let the

chemistry though. The other type have only a small clip in the

center and do not set up the surge action. They've worked fine

for me for years. But I have experienced surge marks with the

others. It's those holes in the clip bars that do it.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/

 

Cheap and works very well. I really like mine...

I modified a 7x5 inch dish with small blocks of acrylic (Perspex) fixed in with epoxy adhesive so that the sheet of 4x5 was supported just by its corners about 1/8" off the bottom of the dish. The Jobo tank is excellent but only economical if you are processing a full load of film.

How do you figure that? Even my biggest tank that holds 18 sheets would only need 1litre of chemicals. The smaller ones need less. Somebody using a processor can get away with even less by using the single reel tank.

David:

 

Like Robert McColloch, who replied a bit earlier, I also use the HP Combi-Plan tank. In practice it is fairly economical to use. You can cover 6 sheets of 4x5 with 1L of chemistry. The official documentation states something around 1.2 L, but you can do with a little less. It takes a little practice to load film onto the rack so that they don't touch, but once you get the hang of it, like anything else, it becomes second nature. On the down side, it does take a long time to fill and drain the tank - about 30 sec. is my best time. I get around that problem simply by filling the tank with developer with the lid off, then snapping the lid on and proceeding as you would with an ordinary daylight roll film tank from there. Temperature control, as you would imagine, is a breeze because you can partially immerse the tank in your tempering bath. Final wash is also easily accomplished by opening the bottom valve and allowing water to flow in from the top. There is no need to handle the film until you are ready to dry.

I have tried trays but didn't care for the way I had to handle the negs. IMOP,

forget about those dalight tanks! I have liked the 4x5 single hangers and had

tanks made that I can process about 30 sheets at once. Some of the time,

when I have to make adjustments to each sheet, I develop by inspection so

keeping them in order isn't a problem. I feel that the times you come up with

when developing a certain way are the times you should stick with. This in

itself keeps consistency. To answer your 3rd question better, hangers should

be about the same... if you keep the agitation about the same. Usually, racks

will have more turbulence because of the holes in the bottom and sides but I

found that if you raise the sheets out of the soup fully and tip them to drain

then insert them back in, this is sufficient for agitation.

Simple answer, I haven't read the others: If you can afford to keep

deep tanks of a good stable developer like DK-50 around, then

Hangers are definitely the most convenient way to go, minimal

handling, very custom agitation, and no residual chems left over

from Dev to Fix like in a tank.

Regarding surge and agitation...

Surge happens for a variety of reasons, and more aggressive agitation will at some point cause surge/drag, simply because the developer is going thru the holes/around a clip faster in a certain areas. Its like a creek or river...look how the water goes faster, and with more activity, around rocks and things. Now imaging that is developer and you will get the idea. Kodaks recomendation, at least years ago when I learned it, was to raise the hanger at a moderate speed (you have to be careful because the clip will cause drag as well. Thats why when I used hangers, I took off the top clip. I never had a sheet slip out either), tilt 45degrees to one side, re-imerse more slowly (this stops the developer from giving increased agitation coming in those holes, and hence surge) than you did taking it out, raise it out again, tilt 45degrees in opposite direction, return slowly. Maybe they've changed it in the last 30 some odd years, but I wouldn't know, since I do them in trays, although at this point I use a completely different system than leafing them over and over (except for 8x10...that works like a charm). Currently I have a 18x22" plexi-glass sheet, with hoops that hold the corner of each sheet loosly in place, and I slide that into the dev. and rock, constantly and eradically, for the duration of the dev. time.

 

Also regarding deep tanks. While in theory they are good, and depending on your desires/needs, the main problem is you will not get consistant results from the top sheets/rolls to the bottom sheets/rolls, because the bottom ones travel further, both in and out of the chemistry, than the top ones, thus increasing agitation, changing contrast, and adding some density.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Alexis

 

www.alexisneel.com

hmm. well my agitation method is closer to Scott's. I do a brisk jerk out of the tank, rock the basket over to one side, then back in & repeat to the other. do this for approx 10 seconds every minute and for 30 sec straight for the first minute. at the end of each cycle, I give a sharp rap to the basket on the lip of the tank to dislodge any airbells. these are 4-up s.s. racks--both Kodak and Cal. Stainless. I've never had a problem with either. I can tell you my agitation is brisk enough to flip a sheet out if the clip is loose...

 

 

I've been using large (2-3.5 gallon) tanks for sheet & roll film for almost 15 yrs now and haven't had the problems alexis describes above. 99% of what I run is 4x5 TMX shot on studio gray sweeps or white keys. Believe me--if there was any uneven density from the top to bottom sheets in a rack, you'd see it. You'd also see it in a control strip.

 

so, I'm sorry...just hasn't been my experience, but as they say, YMMV.

hmmm thats interesting, DK, but as you say YMMV. I've seen this happen for a long time, and not just my processing but other professionals as well. The last photographer I worked for experienced this before I started, and we ran tests with varying agitations, etc. after I started and they all showed some differences. It was before TMX but I wouldn't think the film would make a difference.

 

Anyway, vive la différence! :-)

Thanks for the advice every one. I just won some 4x5 hangers on Ebay and will give you a report once I use them. Thanks for the advice every one.

 

Dave Matuszek